tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post1254013639671413162..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: I've Thought About Making This MotionBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-52308879719223449922012-05-23T13:44:15.013-05:002012-05-23T13:44:15.013-05:00Bart:
I understand your desire to offer this moti...Bart:<br /><br />I understand your desire to offer this motion, but the motion would be ruled out of order.<br /><br />The reason is that it is really a question wrapped up in a motion that proposes no item of business for the convention.<br /><br />And it has an answer - to an extent.<br /><br />The EC is only the Convention in between the annual meetings.<br /><br />When the meeting is in Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-42076904989753927132012-05-23T09:01:10.686-05:002012-05-23T09:01:10.686-05:00In his book "The Executive Committee of the S...In his book "The Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention (1917-1984), Albert McClellan writes: "The Convention bylaws added an unnumbered paragraph, descriptive of powers that are considered by many to be the heart of Executive Committee authority: The Executive Committee shall have no authority to control or direct any agency of the Convention. But the Executive Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-64905463700740208822012-05-22T01:25:05.889-05:002012-05-22T01:25:05.889-05:00I suppose our discussion is long enough that I sho...I suppose our discussion is long enough that I should note I am a lawyer, but this is just generic talk about polity and principles, where I admittedly don't have enough facts to reach a conclusion. Certainly no one should rely on blog musings to stand in for a real legal analysis by attorneys the relevant jurisdictions.jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-55746899625643562982012-05-22T01:16:47.210-05:002012-05-22T01:16:47.210-05:00Sorry for the late additions.
Bart, I understan...Sorry for the late additions. <br /><br />Bart, I understand the basis for the "wall" to be separate corporate existence. The Convention has taken the position that it cannot (or will not) direct any separate corporation that is affiliated with the SBC. So while the Executive Committee is not an agency, or a commission, it is a separate corporation. So all motions to direct a Jonhttp://jonthebaptist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-90867251308731853752012-05-18T16:53:53.233-05:002012-05-18T16:53:53.233-05:00But, I confess that, since I'm not a legal sch...But, I confess that, since I'm not a legal scholar, I really don't know what would become of the entities if their "sole member" were to dissolve.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-83290775679844389622012-05-18T16:52:59.940-05:002012-05-18T16:52:59.940-05:00Stuart,
I think that "sole membership" ...Stuart,<br /><br />I think that "sole membership" may have gone too far because it may make it impossible for any of our entities to find a path of separate survival in the event of the disintegration of the SBC.<br /><br />Now, if Southern Baptist (in the doctrinal sense) churches should ever pass away, then I don't even want our mission boards and seminaries and entities to Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-40176648185553304712012-05-18T09:30:45.057-05:002012-05-18T09:30:45.057-05:00Bart,
Another great discussion.
A question about...Bart,<br /><br />Another great discussion.<br /><br />A question about this line in your OP that I wasn't going to ask. But since you brought up sole membership, here goes. You wrote: "Separate governance enables these institutions, in dire circumstances (the SBC dissolves?), to exist on their own."<br /><br />My question: If the "sole member" of those entities "Stuartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-32762632560354928592012-05-18T08:09:15.912-05:002012-05-18T08:09:15.912-05:00Tim,
It's a complicated question with the ent...Tim,<br /><br />It's a complicated question with the entities, for the reasons I've listed in the post. Personally, I think we've already gone too far with the "sole membership" actions that were taken last decade. Frankly, as local churches designate more and more money around the CP and as state conventions try to apply pressure to send more and more of the CP to the IMB, Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-36564953972688439602012-05-18T07:59:41.080-05:002012-05-18T07:59:41.080-05:00Jon,
1. I agree that the convention still has rec...Jon,<br /><br />1. I agree that the convention still has recourse with regard to agencies that it cannot direct. The trustee system is a good system, particularly with the other agencies, for the reasons I have given.<br /><br />2. Here, I think you and I just see things differently at a point or two. In the first place, I do not necessarily think that I am proposing the lowering of anything, forBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-32686959834333078262012-05-18T05:27:10.685-05:002012-05-18T05:27:10.685-05:00Brother Bart,
You know my feelings on this and th...Brother Bart,<br /><br />You know my feelings on this and they have not changed since the last time you and I discussed this matter. You are absolutely correct concerning the autonomy issue and how the EC is not an autonomous agency of the SBC. I know that I would "second" such a motion if you were to make it.<br /><br />Having said all of that, I also question the "autonomy"Tim Rogershttp://www.pastortimrogers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-11446069369226266712012-05-17T14:19:22.424-05:002012-05-17T14:19:22.424-05:00This is a fascinating question, Bart; I think my r...This is a fascinating question, Bart; I think my reactions boil down to three ideas: <br /><br />1. Even without "directing," no agency can withstand the sustained anger of messengers at more than one meeting. We wipe the budget, or clear the trustees out. So clarifying the answer might not give the Messengers any power they need.<br /><br /><br />2. The EC is the worst agency for Jonhttp://jonthebaptist.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-90110922410880088102012-05-17T10:33:31.235-05:002012-05-17T10:33:31.235-05:00Bart,
You should definitely present this motion. ...Bart,<br /> You should definitely present this motion. We should settle this issue and you are wise to do it when there is not a pressing issue. This is a structural issue and needs to be divorced from the consideration of a specific situation.Scottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61741430589309722462012-05-17T10:19:01.103-05:002012-05-17T10:19:01.103-05:00Bart, I think it would be helpful to many of us fo...Bart, I think it would be helpful to many of us for you to do some writing on the mechanics of the SBC, a denominational civics class if you will. Maybe Toledo can put it to music ala "I'm Just a Bill."KWSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-62872891247174967232012-05-17T10:12:41.319-05:002012-05-17T10:12:41.319-05:00I find it somewhat shocking that such a thing has ...I find it somewhat shocking that such a thing has not been settled in SBC life in all these years. <br /><br />Of course, until you tutored me on convention policy, I thought the messengers could tell the entities what to do.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-78376457958020001102012-05-17T09:21:43.745-05:002012-05-17T09:21:43.745-05:00Jerry,
I'm deliberately trying to bring the m...Jerry,<br /><br />I'm deliberately trying to bring the motion before the convention at a time when it isn't made more "important" by some intensifying set of circumstances. Hard cases make bad law. I'd prefer that we think about the thing itself, not what points we're trying to score with it.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-6831047849266783482012-05-17T08:44:25.247-05:002012-05-17T08:44:25.247-05:00There is no doubt that the motion 'could' ...There is no doubt that the motion 'could' become important. The question is rather: "Is it important now?"<br /><br />If/when the time comes that the SBC is led by a group that is not responsive to the Baptists in the churches, then this motion would be a very considerate and cooperative potential solution.<br /><br />Of course, now that you have posted the idea.... anyone couldJerry Corbaleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11243600698760272202noreply@blogger.com