tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post2558598721702920483..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: A Statement of Southern Baptist Soteriological UnityBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-86637046608057095892013-04-08T14:57:03.293-05:002013-04-08T14:57:03.293-05:00Bart,
Do your really believe the following statem...Bart,<br /><br />Do your really believe the following statement? "Together we affirm that all who spend eternity in Hell will do so at the displeasure of God and contrary to the initial design and desire of God." I don't believe God changes his mind or his "design." If he did, either his first design must have been defective, perhaps even his second design may be Randallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13493350845278259931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-37553386994480165222013-02-17T20:40:04.721-06:002013-02-17T20:40:04.721-06:00Bart,
I totally concur with that. Thanks again.Bart,<br /><br />I totally concur with that. Thanks again.Joe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20063429957823849892013-02-17T08:14:13.378-06:002013-02-17T08:14:13.378-06:00Joe,
The statement doesn't weigh in one way o...Joe,<br /><br />The statement doesn't weigh in one way or the other, really, on the question of reprobation. Rather, this statement really strikes at the heart of the lapsarian question. The implications of this statement are this: IF God has predestined anyone to Hell, He did so not because His highest desires included the creation of a Hell and the placement of people therein, but as a Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-5344622218567136942013-02-17T07:59:43.066-06:002013-02-17T07:59:43.066-06:00Together we affirm that all who spend eternity in ...<i>Together we affirm that all who spend eternity in Hell will do so at the displeasure of God and contrary to the initial design and desire of God.</i><br /><br />Hey Bart<br /><br />In the above, are you basically saying that God didn't predestine anyone to hell? I totally agree with that if that was your goal. When I read it, at first that wasn't immediately clear to me though.Joe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-3504709056705240872013-02-16T09:26:43.743-06:002013-02-16T09:26:43.743-06:00Bret,
Great Job!!!
I did have a twitch as well a...Bret,<br /><br />Great Job!!!<br /><br />I did have a twitch as well at this:<br /><br />"Together we affirm that all who spend eternity in Hell will do so at the displeasure of God and contrary to the initial design and desire of God."<br /><br />But it went away at the next line...<br /><br />"Together we affirm that God, from eternity past, knew exactly who would spend eternity parsonsmikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-8770741593769697782013-02-16T06:52:42.863-06:002013-02-16T06:52:42.863-06:00David,
With regard to Acts 17, you have a point. ...David,<br /><br />With regard to Acts 17, you have a point. In Acts 16 (which I had considered, because we're storying that in Senegal), the details of the gospel presentation are absent. We are told that Paul went to the jailer's home and preached the gospel, but we're not told what he said.<br /><br />At the risk of saying, "It all depends upon what the meaning of the word 'Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20691462991960589442013-02-15T21:24:35.738-06:002013-02-15T21:24:35.738-06:00Rejoinder (kindly)
Acts 16:31 Philippian Jailer
...Rejoinder (kindly)<br /><br />Acts 16:31 Philippian Jailer<br /><br />Acts 17:16ff. Proclamation to the Areopagus<br /><br />It is conceivable that the gospel of Jesus Christ could be presented to pagans on the basis of a general understanding of sacrifice being a necessary means of relationship-propitiation with the divine and the resurrection of Jesus as a declaration of divine acceptance of David (NAS) Rogersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-45627179822094629232013-02-15T20:41:10.934-06:002013-02-15T20:41:10.934-06:00David,
It is an interesting point to ponder.
I w...David,<br /><br />It is an interesting point to ponder.<br /><br />I would rebut (kindly) that prior to the composition of the documents of the New Testament, the gospel was communicated by means of the Old Testament. Where the content of early gospel presentations are given in the book of Acts, the Old Testament plays a substantial and foundational role.<br /><br />And so, it remains true, IMHO,Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-45694451637483683372013-02-15T20:35:04.099-06:002013-02-15T20:35:04.099-06:00In my opinion your opening sentence needs tweaking...In my opinion your opening sentence needs tweaking.<br /><br />"Together we affirm that all of the gospel of Jesus Christ is found in the Christian Scriptures—that is, the Old and New Testaments—which are uniquely the means chosen by God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to communicate His plan for salvation to mankind."<br /><br />I suggest that it should not be said that &David (NAS) Rogersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-90282154775610926052013-02-15T19:21:37.660-06:002013-02-15T19:21:37.660-06:00I just thought of another one:
"Together we ...I just thought of another one:<br /><br />"Together we affirm that God, from eternity past, knew exactly who would spend eternity in Heaven and exactly who would spend eternity in Hell."Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61755695701476010212013-02-15T18:40:45.834-06:002013-02-15T18:40:45.834-06:00Thanks Bart.
Great job!
Thanks for your work.Thanks Bart.<br /><br />Great job!<br /><br />Thanks for your work.Robert I Mastersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-31984409042090582922013-02-15T18:39:09.058-06:002013-02-15T18:39:09.058-06:00Dale,
I saw what you did there. ;-)Dale,<br /><br />I saw what you did there. ;-)Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-30345914408182707292013-02-15T18:32:13.466-06:002013-02-15T18:32:13.466-06:00Bart,
Thanks for the clarification, I think that&...Bart,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification, I think that's a fair summary of supra.Chris Robertshttp://www.sbcfocus.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-37700034670666613562013-02-15T18:24:36.398-06:002013-02-15T18:24:36.398-06:00Chris & Robert,
My apologies for confusing ev...Chris & Robert,<br /><br />My apologies for confusing everyone with the "just because" language. I was hoping that, in context, it was clear what I meant. I didn't mean that, according to that theory, God didn't have any reason (internal to Himself) for doing so. Rather, I simply meant that, according to that way of thinking, God's condemnation of people to Hell is not aBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-74809584953637533752013-02-15T18:13:45.571-06:002013-02-15T18:13:45.571-06:00Bart Barber.
Chris Roberts has expressed well what...Bart Barber.<br />Chris Roberts has expressed well what I know some Southern Baptist believe concerning Gods desire for those in Hell.<br /><br />"I don't think anyone would say God desires Hell for people just because. The supra would say Hell serves God's greater design of furthering his glory and is willed for that reason. I would say whether or not the supra is right about God&#Robert I Mastersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-56346918992403894082013-02-15T17:53:44.930-06:002013-02-15T17:53:44.930-06:00Bart,
I don't think anyone would say God desi...Bart,<br /><br />I don't think anyone would say God desires Hell for people just because. The supra would say Hell serves God's greater design of furthering his glory and is willed for that reason. I would say whether or not the supra is right about God's initial intention regarding Hell, it does nonetheless serve to magnify his glory even as he is displeased with the sinner whose Chris Robertshttp://www.sbcfocus.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47154443397878515672013-02-15T17:28:30.793-06:002013-02-15T17:28:30.793-06:00I'll say here what I said in the comments over...I'll say here what I said in the comments over at SBC Voices:<br />If this becomes a movement, I hope you'll reduce it to four points so that we can call it the Barber-shop Quartet. I propose the four-part "SATB". You more theological types can surely stipulate the four words that would accurately correspond to the four letters I propose.<br />Good stuff, Bart. I look forwardDale Pughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06576663953387918553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-89425265744419248472013-02-15T17:16:16.664-06:002013-02-15T17:16:16.664-06:00Chris,
Of course, my reservations about the trunc...Chris,<br /><br />Of course, my reservations about the truncated statement have to do with the fact that, in some way, we all believe that people are in Hell in accordance with, and not contrary to, the will of God. All but supralapsarians believe that God's desire to have people in Hell is a consequent desire—because people have sinned God desires to consign them to Hell. For a Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-58694643711505858692013-02-15T17:03:38.804-06:002013-02-15T17:03:38.804-06:00Bart,
Infra would have no problem with the statem...Bart,<br /><br />Infra would have no problem with the statement worded either way. Personally, I prefer the slightly truncated statement without reference to the initial design and desire of God, but it doesn't make me twitch enough that I would want to footnote it. :) I'm okay with it as is, just hesitate to speak of God's initial (ultimate?) plan and desire for his creation.Chris Robertshttp://www.sbcfocus.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-5694744400728615812013-02-15T16:57:04.239-06:002013-02-15T16:57:04.239-06:00Chris,
I follow you there. Do you think that an i...Chris,<br /><br />I follow you there. Do you think that an infralapsarian would not object to…<br /><br />"Together we affirm that all who spend eternity in Hell will do so contrary to the desire of God"?<br /><br />Do you know of a better way to word this statement that avoids the problems you see?Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-63047051810606937162013-02-15T16:54:15.499-06:002013-02-15T16:54:15.499-06:00Rick,
As to the political realities of the conven...Rick,<br /><br />As to the political realities of the convention, we are always a coalition of people with different beliefs. From time to time we just seem to pick different ones to make a big deal about. And, indeed, they come with varying weights and should not all be treated equally.<br /><br />For example, there are state conventions that have not affirmed the BF&M 2000, but where the Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-19544991319123774122013-02-15T16:51:39.351-06:002013-02-15T16:51:39.351-06:00Bart,
Indeed an infra could, a supra couldn't...Bart,<br /><br />Indeed an infra could, a supra couldn't. But then you have people like me who think both infra and supra delve a little too far into the realm of speculation.Chris Robertshttp://www.sbcfocus.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-3957982006785775562013-02-15T16:50:36.994-06:002013-02-15T16:50:36.994-06:00Rick,
I tried to avoid any specification of an or...Rick,<br /><br />I tried to avoid any specification of an <i>ordo salutis</i> (as would obviously be necessary, given my objective). If I've failed in that regard, please point out my failure in specifics so that I can attempt to address it.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-73442296301554683422013-02-15T16:45:52.993-06:002013-02-15T16:45:52.993-06:00Chris,
I think any infralapsarian could affirm th...Chris,<br /><br />I think any infralapsarian could affirm this. I tried to make this no more specific an assertion than is 1 Timothy 2:4. In fact, the only reason I included the modifier "initial" was to give comfort to Calvinists more than to those like myself!<br /><br />Perhaps I failed in that regard.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-7979140737451543632013-02-15T16:43:52.839-06:002013-02-15T16:43:52.839-06:00Bart,
Overall, this is an outstanding statement....Bart, <br /><br />Overall, this is an outstanding statement. With regard to doctrinal matters only, it could stand as an example for all of us concerning the areas about which we agree. Chris appears almost willing to let you get by with a statement that seems to disaffirm regeneration before faith. This is well written, well conceived, and a helpful contribution. <br /><br />How I wish our Rick Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09874862957087277168noreply@blogger.com