tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post2829886089624161992..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: Separation of Ministry and StateBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-90374923586541454432011-07-23T09:22:27.005-05:002011-07-23T09:22:27.005-05:00Great discussion here, folks. Sorry I vanished fro...Great discussion here, folks. Sorry I vanished from the thread. Ministry and family come first, and in this latter phase of my blogging I have deliberately limited the amount of attention that I give to comment threads. Please understand that this does not arise out of any lack of respect for you nor out of any lack of desire on my part. This is just an item of self-control that I exercise in Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-10716855824833515002011-07-10T06:53:59.754-05:002011-07-10T06:53:59.754-05:00Also, while I would tend to say that there ARE psy...Also, while I would tend to say that there ARE psychological conditions that need treatment just as you would go to a doctor for a broken arm, a strep infection, etc., Evan made some GOOD POINTS, and great damage has been done to the ministry of churches by Christians going to secular counselors, or even to so-called "Christian" counselors who treat their patients using secular-based Jonathan Meltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694832140058324532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-54140361838366339562011-07-10T06:50:02.062-05:002011-07-10T06:50:02.062-05:00Also, I am personally opposed to churches receivin...Also, I am personally opposed to churches receiving ANY funding, licensure, accreditation, incorporation, etc., that subjects the church to regulation by the government.Jonathan Meltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694832140058324532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-59857708307319296602011-07-10T06:47:25.895-05:002011-07-10T06:47:25.895-05:00Regarding government regulation of religion, while...Regarding government regulation of religion, while government is not allowed to tax churches. as "the power to tax is the power to destroy" according to Chief Justice John Marshall in McCulloch v. Maryland, and therefore church taxation is a 1st Amendment issue, then why is it right to tax THEIR MINISTERS?Jonathan Meltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694832140058324532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-92034995547093951992011-07-07T08:08:38.297-05:002011-07-07T08:08:38.297-05:00A very interesting discussion indeed. I have an MA...A very interesting discussion indeed. I have an MAR with a specialization in Pastoral Counseling, and counsel (mostly crisis marital, but also individuals) about 4-8 "clients" each week (no charge). Some are church members, and some are not. Some are Christians, and some are not. I am not licensed by the state, and have no desire to be. My "clients" know that I am not licensedTonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07260084580514067318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20947798168749515182011-07-06T22:59:41.619-05:002011-07-06T22:59:41.619-05:00Evan,
I agree that, in my experience, I've be...Evan,<br /><br />I agree that, in my experience, I've been more successful in helping people's lives as a pastor giving counsel the more I've set aside the counseling classes I took long ago in seminary and moved into Bible study and applied theology.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-32511093387102135292011-07-06T16:53:15.995-05:002011-07-06T16:53:15.995-05:00The crux of the problem is still the definition of...The crux of the problem is still the definition of counseling. I believe that true counseling, which can change people's live, is rooted in the ministry of the Word. Therefore, it is truly "ministry counseling."<br /><br />My wife has a master's degree in counseling from one of our seminaries--no licensure, no need for licensure. She uses her "training" on a regular Evanhttp://evanlenow.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20395777739922507672011-07-06T15:21:13.207-05:002011-07-06T15:21:13.207-05:00BTW, thanks for the great story about the scholars...BTW, thanks for the great story about the scholarship. I enjoyed it!Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-35613282320229691502011-07-06T15:20:51.811-05:002011-07-06T15:20:51.811-05:00Aaron,
I think that the major reason why church-r...Aaron,<br /><br />I think that the major reason why church-related "ministry counseling" winds up seeking the state license is in order to convince insurance companies to underwrite their therapies.<br /><br />I'm wondering why, if there will be "ministry counseling" and "secular counseling," the guild cannot sufficiently regulate itself? In other words, the Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-23965609340248208992011-07-06T14:49:52.315-05:002011-07-06T14:49:52.315-05:00I guess I don't see why a pastor doing "m...I guess I don't see why a pastor doing "ministry counseling" as part of his duties as pastor, serving a local church, should feel compelled to become "licensed" - especially if earning that "license" involves having to affirm something contrary to your convictions. <br /><br />I understand why a counselor who is a Christian working for a private secular clinic Big Daddy Weavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270791070315400815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-28806036537475750412011-07-06T13:39:57.044-05:002011-07-06T13:39:57.044-05:00Bob,
Don't your phrases "our church coun...Bob,<br /><br />Don't your phrases "our church counselor" and "Counseling is a professional field apart from the church" stand in a wee bit of tension with one another?Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-66667564856591905632011-07-06T13:37:56.597-05:002011-07-06T13:37:56.597-05:00Aaron,
So it seems to me that you're suggesti...Aaron,<br /><br />So it seems to me that you're suggesting that there are two kinds of counseling, one of which qualifies as a ministry (in the stricter sense that poses the conundrum here) and one of which does not. Religious counseling vs. secular counseling.<br /><br />If that is the case (and it very well may be), then I would not have a problem with the governmental licensure of Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-2516980473266715122011-07-06T12:26:55.802-05:002011-07-06T12:26:55.802-05:00I think this gets to what "type" of coun...I think this gets to what "type" of counseling we are dealing with.<br /><br />Secular vs. Religious<br /><br />Is a church with a counseling ministry "required" to meet certain state standards, via a license, etc.?<br /><br />Or does a license simply bring with it privileges and credibility necessary to compete with secular counseling firms?<br /><br />I would oppose the Big Daddy Weavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270791070315400815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-49053076636532831352011-07-06T12:18:48.798-05:002011-07-06T12:18:48.798-05:00Our church counselor is a friend of many years'...Our church counselor is a friend of many years' standing, back to when she was a bank officer, and on through the events which led to her calling into professional counseling.<br /><br />Unless a pastor is specifically trained in all the things that counselors are, all they can do is offer biblical advice. But I doubt they're educated to spot the signs of mental disease and things of thatBob Clevelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06110395869562328309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-2798387956466372152011-07-06T11:32:57.511-05:002011-07-06T11:32:57.511-05:00By the way, education is an excellent example of a...By the way, education is an excellent example of a similar dilemma. If my child is being taught to fly an airplane, I want the most competent instructor, faith notwithstanding. If my child is being taught to think and imparted with a worldview, I feel differently about it, believing that we are coming close to the meaning of Christian discipleship.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-28526205348890928772011-07-06T11:23:31.864-05:002011-07-06T11:23:31.864-05:00Aaron,
I should also mention, for the benefit of ...Aaron,<br /><br />I should also mention, for the benefit of everyone, that this issue would be important for both you and me because <a href="http://chronicle.com/article/Judge-Upholds-Dismissal-of/123704/" rel="nofollow">it is already a subject of religious-liberty jurisprudence</a>. I think the ambiguities here will be a source of many more cases to come.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-19804209582393944942011-07-06T11:18:14.393-05:002011-07-06T11:18:14.393-05:00Aaron,
re: your mom, ;-)
Part of the difficulty ...Aaron,<br /><br />re: your mom, ;-)<br /><br />Part of the difficulty here regards the two senses of "ministry" that I tried to highlight in the article.<br /><br />Let's consider, for example, a pediatrician. I believe that a Christian can have pediatric medicine as a vocation. I believe that God can and does equip individuals for pediatric medicine and direct them into that field Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-57793267811961215552011-07-06T11:05:08.890-05:002011-07-06T11:05:08.890-05:00Isn't a big leap to say that:
Because governm...Isn't a big leap to say that:<br /><br />Because government has standards on a field considered by some to be "ministry" - then we have a state church?<br /><br />Compare counseling with education.<br /><br />For many, Protestants, Catholics, Jews, etc., education is an area of ministry, specifically providing formal K-12 education. The government has for many many many years Big Daddy Weavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270791070315400815noreply@blogger.com