tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post3161650653809702344..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: Monochurches, Not Megachurches, Are the ProblemBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-84834149986710042622012-05-10T10:10:14.746-05:002012-05-10T10:10:14.746-05:00Yes! We agree!Yes! We agree!Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-17805922789211193172012-05-10T09:34:12.108-05:002012-05-10T09:34:12.108-05:00Bro. Bart, with your last response to me -- includ...Bro. Bart, with your last response to me -- including, "a healthy relationship with sister churches provides a mechanism of response against the invasion of deadly doctrine" -- I think we have just about reached agreement. We might disagree a little on how we determine what is a "sister church", but even there I don't think we're far off. It is about building R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-57769613477445166852012-05-10T09:04:22.814-05:002012-05-10T09:04:22.814-05:00Bart,
As you know, I concur. I think this frater...Bart, <br />As you know, I concur. I think this fraternal (not institutional) relationship is "worth fighting for". Here is my recent blog post regarding the issue.<br /><br />http://richmondgoolsby.blogspot.com/2012/04/need-for-baptist-churches-to-associate.htmlRichmond Goolsbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17057592898812867839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-50332427847740186472012-05-09T22:34:06.149-05:002012-05-09T22:34:06.149-05:00Anonymous, thanks for your story.
You're 100%...Anonymous, thanks for your story.<br /><br />You're 100% right. At this point, the only people who could hold Stanley accountable are those members of his church who understand the error that he has made.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-7777814050127354382012-05-09T20:52:29.339-05:002012-05-09T20:52:29.339-05:00Bart,
According to Thom Rainer I pastor a "m...Bart,<br /><br />According to Thom Rainer I pastor a "mid-Mega church" in the Atlanta area that is SBC. Because of our denominational association with other SBC churches we recently had a church resign its fellowship with us because they ordained a lesbian deacon(es). <br /><br />To your point, who is going to hold Stanley's "feet to the fire?". Our process was not Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-27770245458816759742012-05-09T16:39:34.333-05:002012-05-09T16:39:34.333-05:00Richmond,
The challenge here is the widespread an...Richmond,<br /><br />The challenge here is the widespread anemia (and sometimes outright failure) of the institutional aspect of Baptist associationalism. Many associations feel the terrifying breath of financial insolvency breathing down their necks with each month's financial statement. They wonder what can have happened to erode so rapidly a framework that was robust just a generation ago.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-36260699839797893052012-05-09T13:27:41.669-05:002012-05-09T13:27:41.669-05:00Bart,
Yes, yes, and yes! The need for accountabi...Bart, <br />Yes, yes, and yes! The need for accountability is still great although the practice has faded. I have just finished Baker's, "The Blossoming Desert", a few biographies on B.H. Carroll, and Early's account of the Carroll/Hayden Controversy. These books and others on Baptist history (as well as old church meeting minutes) confirm that our Baptist forefathers sought Richmond Goolsbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17057592898812867839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-57072127551963874332012-05-07T06:18:02.007-05:002012-05-07T06:18:02.007-05:00Jonathan,
I agree with regard to young pastors be...Jonathan,<br /><br />I agree with regard to young pastors being cautious about those whom they follow. Sometimes I scratch my head and wonder aloud why good godly people so often choose their heroes so poorly?!<br /><br />With regard to the function of associationalism, I think (with something far less than certainty) that the FORMAL concept of an association in Southern Baptist life is not Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-30387719222341763812012-05-06T17:29:29.729-05:002012-05-06T17:29:29.729-05:00Sorry, Jonathan. The last one I really wanted to r...Sorry, Jonathan. The last one I really wanted to respond to, and I plan to do so. Pastoral ministry limits the time I have to reply. You may have noticed that, for everybody, my comments generally come in bursts (when free time presents itself).<br /><br />Several of your other comments have been good, strong content, but they've had more to do with the old SBC-ABA debates. Those are Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-56825047157334818822012-05-06T16:24:36.279-05:002012-05-06T16:24:36.279-05:00Hi Bart,
I noticed that you have not responded to...Hi Bart,<br /><br />I noticed that you have not responded to my last several comments that I have left on your blog? <br /><br />Are they not intellectually complex enough to merit your attention?<br /><br />Or are they so disagreeable with your position that you choose to ignore them?Jonathan Meltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694832140058324532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-52464012185189596262012-05-04T20:12:16.139-05:002012-05-04T20:12:16.139-05:00First of all, all the young Christians and pastors...First of all, all the young Christians and pastors who have idolized Andy Stanley should be more careful as to who they are following.<br /><br />Secondly, I am affiliated with the American Baptist Association (ABA). Because of our fervent love for and staunch defense of the independence of the local church, we perhaps have taken that to an extreme. We basically have what the old-timers a "Jonathan Meltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09694832140058324532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-59626541530642678662012-05-04T10:48:17.920-05:002012-05-04T10:48:17.920-05:00R.L.,
You've provided a helpful corrective th...R.L.,<br /><br />You've provided a helpful corrective through your comment. Very good. Here's what I've taken away from it, with full agreement:<br /><br />1. The "monochurch" character of North Point certainly is not the <b>precipitating problem</b>. That is, Stanley did not do what he did BECAUSE his church is aloof from other churches. My title at least suggests that Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-18175219426935343272012-05-04T08:38:28.771-05:002012-05-04T08:38:28.771-05:00Bart,
While you didn't address my comment di...Bart, <br /><br />While you didn't address my comment directly (and I didn't expect you to but thanks for acknowledging it), I do appreciate your response to Rick with those specific examples from Southern Seminary. One of the biggest issues I am finding is that people are lobbing grenades at seminaries they've never been to, nor ever sat in a class at. While I could point out D.R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11588838898962876640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-38950118300945222532012-05-03T16:56:22.500-05:002012-05-03T16:56:22.500-05:00Brother Bart, I appreciate your response. There is...Brother Bart, I appreciate your response. There is quite a bit I'd like to say in reference to denominationalism, but fear it moves too far away from your main point. But let me say that your chapter "A Denomination of Churches" in <i>Upon this Rock</i> is well-written and well-argued, even though I don't come to your conclusion. <br /><br />I may see too much causation in your R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-85647951093802423812012-05-03T11:10:19.465-05:002012-05-03T11:10:19.465-05:00Very good post, Bart. I concur with you...and Dr. ...Very good post, Bart. I concur with you...and Dr. Mohler (of course ;-) ).<br /><br />I am further troubled by the double standard criticizers who publicly questioned and condemned Dr. Mohler's questioning and critique of Pastor Andy Stanley.<br /><br />SG!SAGordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16002341529764571177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-75381880341545012852012-05-02T22:43:31.888-05:002012-05-02T22:43:31.888-05:00Tim,
A new Blogger interface confused me momentar...Tim,<br /><br />A new Blogger interface confused me momentarily and I accidentally deleted this comment. I'm restoring it.<br /><br />I submit to you that you should read my post more carefully.<br /><br />1. I only mentioned two specific denominational entities in the post: The SBTC and the SBC. The function of these two entities in the post was to illustrate the difference between a Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-16635672244299434972012-05-02T22:34:35.385-05:002012-05-02T22:34:35.385-05:00Jon,
I agree that a high level of compatibility e...Jon,<br /><br />I agree that a high level of compatibility exists between Mohler's essay and my own.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-3314601708615467632012-05-02T22:29:41.399-05:002012-05-02T22:29:41.399-05:00D.R.,
Your comment is not addressed to me. I just...D.R.,<br /><br />Your comment is not addressed to me. I just wanted you to know why I'm not offering any reply to it.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20906733429315613892012-05-02T22:26:41.281-05:002012-05-02T22:26:41.281-05:00Aaron,
I agree. I think that accountability in th...Aaron,<br /><br />I agree. I think that accountability in the structure of the SBC needs to be stronger. That's why I would support changing the SBC into a confessional fellowship of churches like the SBTC.<br /><br />I concede that your point about the size of megachurches making them somewhat immune to the pressures of accountability from sister congregations. I do not believe that this Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-42030868009396422532012-05-02T22:17:30.520-05:002012-05-02T22:17:30.520-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-27623529742489040422012-05-02T21:57:18.028-05:002012-05-02T21:57:18.028-05:00Bro. Vaughn,
I believe that the New Testament chu...Bro. Vaughn,<br /><br />I believe that the New Testament churches were interdependent as well as independent. I also believe that denominational structure, done biblically, is precisely the interdependence and independence of the local congregations. On this basis my chapter in <i>Upon this Rock</i> argued for a denomination of churches as a biblical and useful idea.<br /><br />My convictions Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47679190018269526772012-05-02T21:51:22.808-05:002012-05-02T21:51:22.808-05:00OK, now that a busy Wednesday is winding down, I c...OK, now that a busy Wednesday is winding down, I can enter the conversation. Thanks for your patience.<br /><br />Rick, I do believe that the seeker sensitive approach can be connected with this, and I also believe that excesses of contextualization can be connected with this. I don't know how those connections work out in terms of cause, effect, or correspondence, but I do think that they Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-48613358116315372842012-05-02T20:16:46.050-05:002012-05-02T20:16:46.050-05:00D. R.,
I am not the only one who believes many o...D. R., <br /><br />I am not the only one who believes many of the YRR folks have taken contextualization too far. I'm glad to hear the T4G conference is trying to reign in on that. They need to.<br /><br />Until about a year ago, I might have been forced to agree with you about homosexuality and Southern. But Dr. Mohler's comments last year about the way we have lied and been homophobic Rick Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09874862957087277168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-30724600503663248952012-05-02T19:14:01.755-05:002012-05-02T19:14:01.755-05:00I think you and Mohler both touch on the "mon...I think you and Mohler both touch on the "mono" theme, from different angles. Two traditional relationships are under pressure; the relationship of pastor-to-congregation, and pastor-to-pastor. <br /><br />In the megachurch, Mohler notes the lonliness at the top. If you think God has given you the ultimate responsibility of making a $25mil. budget and filling seats, you might feel Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-11956967246140065592012-05-02T11:18:13.739-05:002012-05-02T11:18:13.739-05:00Rick,
I am glad you posted your comment over on ...Rick, <br /><br />I am glad you posted your comment over on Bart's blog so it can be critically challenged. You write:<br /><br /><i>As an alternative, might I suggest two of the ideological perspectives embraced not only by Stanley, but also by pastors of many different sized churches. They include (a) the "Seeker Sensitive" movement ... and (b) the contextualization trend common D.R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11588838898962876640noreply@blogger.com