tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post5023523012418547762..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: On the Christian Use of the Name "Allah"Bart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-5576147515204167372009-03-30T15:21:00.000-05:002009-03-30T15:21:00.000-05:00First, I'd like to thank everyone for this interes...First, I'd like to thank everyone for this interesting discussion, and for Mr. Barber, and his wonderful blog.<BR/><BR/>Second, I'm living in a culture where, in order to share my faith, I need to choose which term for "God" I want to use. I won't share that process with everyone here, but just know that it's been a long process, and the Father is still teaching me more about it each day.<BR/><Cassandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697568007959768676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47894352042366767742009-03-05T10:05:00.000-06:002009-03-05T10:05:00.000-06:00"Troy,Certainly, "Allah" is not foreign to their r..."Troy,<BR/><BR/>Certainly, "Allah" is not foreign to their religion (which we want them to forsake), but if they do not speak Arabic, then they are no longer in a cultural situation in which "Allah" is the only good choice. And that changes the algebra of the equation a great deal from the argument that we sometimes hear ("Using 'Allah' is the only choice we have!"). Furthermore, I don't see how Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-19315073647255172952009-03-05T07:21:00.000-06:002009-03-05T07:21:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,While I had hoped that my status as a...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>While I had hoped that my status as a <A HREF="http://sbctoday.com/2009/01/09/a-theologians-response-to-contextualization/" REL="nofollow">proclaimer of a false gospel</A> would not cause my thoughts to have less weight in this discussion, I do understand how our previous conversations factor into this one.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, in addition to Brother Troy's thoughts aboveFrom the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-69237428923001498172009-03-05T01:33:00.000-06:002009-03-05T01:33:00.000-06:00Bart,1. If you can allow room for Christians in Sa...Bart,<BR/><BR/>1. If you can allow room for Christians in Saudi Arabia to use "Allah," you should allow room for Christians in parts of Southeast Asia too. These people don't speak Arabic but view the term "Allah" in the same way as Arabs, for all practical purposes. "Allah" is completely ingrained in their language. And they can understand as well as Arabs that there's a distinction between Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-21632675366207203662009-03-04T22:10:00.000-06:002009-03-04T22:10:00.000-06:00FTME,Our previous differences over whether Muslims...FTME,<BR/><BR/>Our previous differences over whether Muslims and Christians are worshipping the same god cannot be ignored in this context. That difference makes your parable less than helpful here. I was tempted to retort in kind at the time, but in a rare demonstration of restraint and sensible self-control on my part, I did not (nor will I now).<BR/><BR/>But for you and Troy I concede that, ifBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-12308621175016207022009-03-04T21:29:00.000-06:002009-03-04T21:29:00.000-06:00Bart, "Allah" may be a loan-word for non-Arabic sp...Bart, "Allah" may be a loan-word for non-Arabic speakers, but sometimes those people don't see it as a loan-word at all. For many generations it has been the only word in their language for the Creator God. So, due to acculturation, "Allah" is the only good choice in their cultural situation. "Yawheh" is a loan-word with baggage; "Allah" is, from their perspective, an indigenous word with lessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-74034291735695475332009-03-04T18:13:00.000-06:002009-03-04T18:13:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,You said to Brother Troy:if they do n...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>You said to Brother Troy:<BR/><B>if they do not speak Arabic, then they are no longer in a cultural situation in which "Allah" is the only good choice</B><BR/><BR/>Maybe. Maybe not. We should remain open to both camps to see which word has the closest relationship to the Creator as revealed in the Holy Scriptures. <BR/><BR/>You also said:<BR/><B>I don't see how any of your From the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-80934801131515287322009-03-04T16:09:00.000-06:002009-03-04T16:09:00.000-06:00Troy,Certainly, "Allah" is not foreign to their re...Troy,<BR/><BR/>Certainly, "Allah" is not foreign to their religion (which we want them to forsake), but if they do not speak Arabic, then they are no longer in a cultural situation in which "Allah" is the only good choice. And that changes the algebra of the equation a great deal from the argument that we sometimes hear ("Using 'Allah' is the only choice we have!"). Furthermore, I don't see how Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47228063089951527342009-03-04T14:42:00.000-06:002009-03-04T14:42:00.000-06:00Bart, you asked what good reason there would be am...Bart, you asked what good reason there would be among non-Arabs to bypass heart-language words and use the foreign word "Allah." Your question is problematic because, for many non-Arabs, "Allah" is not foreign. After several centuries it has actually become part of the heart-language. So what's the good reason to use "Allah"? It's the clearest term, and the term with the least baggage.<BR/><Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-24053182964432664072009-03-04T08:26:00.000-06:002009-03-04T08:26:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,The relevance of the syncretistic ori...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>The relevance of the syncretistic origins of Islam was stated above as:<BR/><B>I would compare Muhammad to the Mormon as he is the one who borrowed the word "Allah" from Christians and Jews around him.</B><BR/><BR/>Apologies for my poor use of English in communicating that. However, you have answered that you are in support of using the term "Allah" to Arabic-speaking From the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-60477369296054819342009-03-04T06:27:00.000-06:002009-03-04T06:27:00.000-06:00FTME,Thanks for reminding us all of the syncretist...FTME,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for reminding us all of the syncretistic origins of Islam. I'm not sure how that is precisely relevant. It is quite possible, both in biology and in theology, to have a hybrid of a hybrid that is still not in possession of the same genetic code as the original.<BR/><BR/><BR/>John D,<BR/><BR/>But I'm not talking about conceding the use of the word "Allah" inBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-13328559441209532022009-03-03T09:15:00.000-06:002009-03-03T09:15:00.000-06:00FTME - You made just the point I was thinking of. ...FTME - <BR/><BR/>You made just the point I was thinking of. In their relation to Christianity, Islam and Mormonism are very similar. Christianity was present for many years before them, and when these two religions began they both co opted Christian terms and twisted them to their own designs. The only difference is that the Muslims did it 1500 years ago, so in our modern, western minds the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-8389234602666470222009-03-03T08:40:00.000-06:002009-03-03T08:40:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,Apologies for taking up so much of yo...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>Apologies for taking up so much of your comment stream here, but I forgot to mention that not all Muslims use the term Allah all the time. If I am not mistaken, Persian Muslims often use the terms Allah and Khuda interchangeabley... as Khuda is the Farsi word for the Supreme Creator.<BR/><BR/>Peace to you brother,<BR/>From the Middle EastFrom the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47275295456774023272009-03-03T08:27:00.000-06:002009-03-03T08:27:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,Your "intent" theory makes sense to m...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>Your "intent" theory makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.<BR/><BR/>One note of interest is that it can be argued, effectively, that Islam was a syncretism of Christianity (at least what was present on the Arabian Peninsula), Judaism and assorted other concepts present in 7th century Arabia. A peculiar amalgamation of Jewish Law, monotheism, morality, etc was theFrom the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-40009650259897814502009-03-03T08:04:00.000-06:002009-03-03T08:04:00.000-06:00You know, one thing worthy of mention here is that...You know, one thing worthy of mention here is that <EM>The Camel</EM>, promoted by the IMB and endorsed by Jerry Rankin, was not developed in an Arabic-speaking context, but elsewhere.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-59710385877162931432009-03-03T07:47:00.000-06:002009-03-03T07:47:00.000-06:00Ron P and Bill,These are excellent first-hand obse...Ron P and Bill,<BR/><BR/>These are excellent first-hand observations that contribute greatly to our discussion!Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-8300594191462555302009-03-03T07:46:00.000-06:002009-03-03T07:46:00.000-06:00Jonathan,A brilliant catch, and one that will be t...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>A brilliant catch, and one that will be the subject of a forthcoming post somewhere. And because there's more coming on this subject, I was hoping that this bit of news would not make it into our discussion.<BR/><BR/>I should never bet against the capabilities of my intelligent and well-read band of readers here!Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-74794809940007469102009-03-03T07:42:00.000-06:002009-03-03T07:42:00.000-06:00FTME,The "some Christians" is a referenc...FTME,<BR/><BR/>The "some Christians" is a reference, for example, to those who might pursue a C5 approach, and is an analysis irrespective of the linguistic conditions prevailing in the country.<BR/><BR/>To help achieve clarity, allow me to elaborate.<BR/><BR/>Why might one choose to use the name "Allah" to refer to the Christian God? On the one hand, one might choose to use Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-29647835219779044902009-03-03T07:21:00.000-06:002009-03-03T07:21:00.000-06:00This is anecdotal, but I suppose so is everyone's ...This is anecdotal, but I suppose so is everyone's experience. I teach at a University. I can't say it comes up often, but the few times I've spoken with Muslims about spiritual matters, they have always, as far as I can remember, used the word "God."<BR/><BR/>I guess the bottom line should be: use the word you think is wisest in the situation.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04864810365424064220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-12524298687792360902009-03-02T23:28:00.000-06:002009-03-02T23:28:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,You said:In your proposed illustratio...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><B>In your proposed illustration, am I the Mormon? Because that's the equivalent here. What the Mormons are doing to orthodox Christian terminology, some Christians are attempting to do to Islamic concepts.</B><BR/><BR/>I must be missing something here. Is the Arabic language excluded in your assertion?<BR/><BR/>Peace to you my brother,<BR/>From the Middle EastFrom the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-62303911989640132522009-03-02T23:25:00.000-06:002009-03-02T23:25:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,This is an interesting question to po...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>This is an interesting question to ponder... one I have been able to avoid by sticking with Arabic speakers. A few thoughts/questions come to mind in considering the options:<BR/><BR/>Using the term Yahweh might only confuse them into thinking we believe in the Jewish god, which, if we are consistent, would also be an idol or false god, it seems. Now I'm beginning to wonderFrom the Middle Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07509281349717741174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-80717505835856879402009-03-02T22:42:00.000-06:002009-03-02T22:42:00.000-06:00Bart,I work for a large corporation that employs p...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I work for a large corporation that employs people from all parts of the world. Many have come to work here in the U.S. in our various locations. My office building is very diverse in nationality and religion. I do not believe that the Muslims that I have attempted to witness to, would understand the usage of "Allah" by me, as a reference to the LORD God of the Bible. Quite the Ron Phillips, Sr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15891614423106717280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-9400102452373137472009-03-02T22:38:00.000-06:002009-03-02T22:38:00.000-06:00Bart, It appears that some Islamic countries are a...Bart, <BR/><BR/>It appears that some Islamic countries are addressing your question from the other side: How do we stop Christians from confusing us by using Allah?<BR/><BR/>Malaysia has just ruled that Christians can use "Allah" in publications, but must print "FOR CHRISTIANITY" in large type on the cover. <A>http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2009/03/malaysia-will-permit-christian.html</A>Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16519048339096872224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-2856098481198343642009-03-02T21:52:00.000-06:002009-03-02T21:52:00.000-06:00John D,In your proposed illustration, am I the Mor...John D,<BR/><BR/>In your proposed illustration, am I the Mormon? Because that's the equivalent here. What the Mormons are doing to orthodox Christian terminology, some Christians are attempting to do to Islamic concepts.<BR/><BR/>I do think that one of the great benefits of this conversation has been the reinforcement in my own heart of the need to strive for clarity in presenting the gospel in Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-87335622343629942182009-03-02T21:39:00.000-06:002009-03-02T21:39:00.000-06:00Todd,It is hard for me to clear it all away and bo...Todd,<BR/><BR/>It is hard for me to clear it all away and boil it all down. I'm a ponderer, not a quick thinker. Mentally, I'm very slow. I have to chew on it for a long time. I've been chewing on this one for a long time.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.com