tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post5714827878142726619..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: It's Really About BaptismBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger117125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-74752894153855273832012-09-25T13:58:54.525-05:002012-09-25T13:58:54.525-05:00sorry again for intrusion, please discard this aft...sorry again for intrusion, please discard this after reading, if you wish, and THANK YOU for your response at Voices:<br /><br />Hi BART,<br /><br />I am misunderstanding you. I’m trying.<br />All I know is that all we have to give is that which was given to us from God.<br /><br />The MRI equipment was developed in ‘our’ time by those who were gifted with the capacity to do the job. I’m not Christianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15969310497166526545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-42962477283316976432012-09-25T12:28:04.388-05:002012-09-25T12:28:04.388-05:00Hi BART,
I apologize for placing this here, but ...Hi BART,<br /><br />I apologize for placing this here, but just in case it gets deleted over at Voices, I still wanted you to see it. If you wish, after reading it, please discard it:<br /><br />"“Simple rule for me: If my great-great-grandparents didn’t even know that it existed or was possible, it’s not a fundamental human right for me.”<br /><br />Hi BART,<br />Our family is medical Christianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15969310497166526545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-50845430407475239962012-09-23T15:25:20.577-05:002012-09-23T15:25:20.577-05:00Bart, just want to say thanks for the original pos...Bart, just want to say thanks for the original post. I believe all 5 of your points are at play not only in the SBC, but among most Baptists in the U.S. (unless they're already fully committed to open communion).R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-10457465193885798462012-09-18T19:38:52.060-05:002012-09-18T19:38:52.060-05:00For the record, I do believe baptismal regeneratio...For the record, I do believe baptismal regeneration is a first-tier issue.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-63720767900533951772012-09-18T19:35:32.653-05:002012-09-18T19:35:32.653-05:00We've gone 112 comments. We probably ought to ...We've gone 112 comments. We probably ought to come up for air!<br /><br />Rest well. Until next time.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-17989699159269669542012-09-18T19:34:25.135-05:002012-09-18T19:34:25.135-05:00Okay. I guess it's sort of a summary of my pos...Okay. I guess it's sort of a summary of my position. I think I am done with my argumentation, for now, unless you have other issues you think merit discussion.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-37366503404784011752012-09-18T18:40:17.645-05:002012-09-18T18:40:17.645-05:00David, that's not really argumentation; it'...David, that's not really argumentation; it's just an axiomatic assertion of our difference of opinion on the matter. It doesn't carry the conversation forward just to say, "Baptism is second-tier; the Lord's Supper is first-tier." Of course you believe that. That's the subject matter of the disagreement.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-16499155676617410402012-09-18T18:39:29.767-05:002012-09-18T18:39:29.767-05:00Technically, I don't think I would even use th...Technically, I don't think I would even use the term "second-tier unity." Second-tier issues have to do more with union, uniformity, and cooperation in ministry projects.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-66727143005156209382012-09-18T18:37:25.403-05:002012-09-18T18:37:25.403-05:00In the triage model, I believe that believers bapt...In the triage model, I believe that believers baptism is a second tier matter.<br /><br />The Lord's Supper, however, is designed to celebrate our unity on a first-tier level.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-32965296189623064322012-09-18T18:34:51.581-05:002012-09-18T18:34:51.581-05:00Here is how I state it:
The root of authentic Chr...Here is how I state it:<br /><br />The root of authentic Christian unity is centered in the gospel. As Christians, it is the gospel itself—a shared experience of having one’s life changed by the same gospel message; a shared relationship with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; and a shared doctrinal agreement on the essentials of the gospel message—that determines our David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-85868992205850002392012-09-18T18:03:39.922-05:002012-09-18T18:03:39.922-05:00"When we say we alone have the doctrinally co..."When we say we alone have the doctrinally correct church, humility is gone."<br /><br />Is this necessarily true? If in all the world there were only Baptists and Mormons, would we be constrained to be either prideful or heretical? For the subject matter at hand, is baptism so trivial that to make a big deal about it is to be willing to make a big deal about any old minutiae?<br /><br Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-56541988995557150192012-09-18T18:02:41.238-05:002012-09-18T18:02:41.238-05:00I think your question on the theoretical pre-trib ...I think your question on the theoretical pre-trib rapture splinter church are answered in the Woodhouse article. It is hard for me to synthesize everything he says there in an appropriately sized comment. If you don't have time to read through it again, I understand, though.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-49493111877713118542012-09-18T17:56:38.752-05:002012-09-18T17:56:38.752-05:00You said: "When we are teaching contrary to o...You said: "When we are teaching contrary to one another, unity has been broken already. Certainly when we divide into separate churches over doctrinal differences, unity is gone."<br /><br />I say: When we say we alone have the doctrinally correct church, humility is gone. When we say denominations are necessarily a breach of unity, freedom is gone. When we say doctrinal agreement must David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61591078221793768822012-09-18T17:48:40.702-05:002012-09-18T17:48:40.702-05:00I agree. That was the question. I just don't e...I agree. That was the question. I just don't exactly remember why I asked it.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-6645526887340133202012-09-18T17:47:40.658-05:002012-09-18T17:47:40.658-05:00Okay, maybe I'm making it too complicated. I b...Okay, maybe I'm making it too complicated. I believe they likely would have corrected their error, explained why it was an error, and then urged them to be baptized appropriately.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-26961244776718411522012-09-18T17:42:03.243-05:002012-09-18T17:42:03.243-05:00So, if at the church you are presently attending, ...So, if at the church you are presently attending, a group of people within the congregation were to declare that they can share church membership only with those who subscribe to a pretribulational rapture, they depart the church, they campaign throughout the membership for those who are likeminded to join them, and they start their own pretribulational church…<br /><br />…if all this happens, Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-660903182578848252012-09-18T17:40:13.837-05:002012-09-18T17:40:13.837-05:00I think it does skirt the question a bit. My quest...I think it does skirt the question a bit. My question was not about the apostolic practice of communion, since it is anachronistic to ask about such things (and that's part of the reason why I'm asking this particular question). Rather, my question had to do with how you thought the apostles might react to someone who refused baptism because they had been immersed in some Jewish ritual, Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-43666477250858207742012-09-18T17:02:07.664-05:002012-09-18T17:02:07.664-05:00RE: your comment on unity.
This may, perhaps, be ...RE: your comment on unity.<br /><br />This may, perhaps, be one of the keys to our disagreement. I understand unity differently. I think it is important to distinguish between unity, uniformity, organic union, and cooperation in ministry projects.<br /><br />Now we are getting into the meat of my upcoming dissertation. David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-67674138381213126512012-09-18T16:59:32.858-05:002012-09-18T16:59:32.858-05:00My initial answer is this:
It would be wonderful...My initial answer is this: <br /><br />It would be wonderful if we still had the apostles with us to clarify matters such as this. What we do have is the written revelation they left us, the Holy Spirit within us, and fellowship of the church throughout history and around the world, to help us to better understand. This is, as I understand it, the point which makes Roman Catholicism an attractiveDavid Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-67382771556972410092012-09-18T16:55:55.463-05:002012-09-18T16:55:55.463-05:00When we are teaching contrary to one another, unit...When we are teaching contrary to one another, unity has been broken already. Certainly when we divide into separate churches over doctrinal differences, unity is gone.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-21321282138581834662012-09-18T16:50:02.697-05:002012-09-18T16:50:02.697-05:00Now for your question on the apostles...Now for your question on the apostles...David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-44639835385521013152012-09-18T16:48:49.002-05:002012-09-18T16:48:49.002-05:00Having studied church history, I have come to the ...Having studied church history, I have come to the conclusion that the failure to give the emphasis to the unity of the Body of Christ that Jesus and the Bible gives it is a greater sin than the failure to defend uncompromisingly enough these other doctrines I have specifically enumerated here. I believe more pain has been caused, both to Christians, and to Christ Himself, as a result of this sin David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47478626696776238722012-09-18T16:27:47.094-05:002012-09-18T16:27:47.094-05:00And yet, David, having studied the history of Chri...And yet, David, having studied the history of Christianity, can you say that it is not sinful to teach contrary to the truth? Can you say that it is a sin of no consequence? Hasn't the multiplication of these doctrinal positions and the way in which people have asserted forcefully that which either is clearly in error or is unclear—hasn't this been the cause of much pain, weakness, and Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-29990542400141292602012-09-18T16:18:11.175-05:002012-09-18T16:18:11.175-05:00I am a convinced premillennialist. I also am a con...I am a convinced premillennialist. I also am a convinced complementarian. I also am a convinced "antinomist" (with regard to the 5 points).<br /><br />But I also recognize that other people down through church history have disagreed with me on these points, many of them people with whom my spirit and my understanding of Scripture leads to embrace as authentic brothers and sisters in David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-38351143188417660402012-09-18T16:11:23.519-05:002012-09-18T16:11:23.519-05:00It could be, I suppose. I haven't really consi...It could be, I suppose. I haven't really considered that question before. I know that I try to be careful, when teaching about items that are not entirely clear in scripture, to communicate clearly where scriptural certainty ends and my own opinions begin. I think it is wrongful for a teacher to fail to do this. Don't you?<br /><br />Also, is there a point forthcoming soon when we can Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.com