tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post6709657516157751788..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: Of Muslims and Middle-Eastern CultureBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-36235746090744376192007-08-21T21:12:00.000-05:002007-08-21T21:12:00.000-05:00Bart, I just finished reading this post and its co...Bart, I just finished reading this post and its comments -- so I haven't read your latest post on the Camel. Of all your posts I've read on the subject thus far, I think this one most clearly shines the light on the dark problem areas of the Camel method that are promoted in the book by Kevin Greeson. Thanks for pointedly, yet amicably, addressing this somewhat volatile subject.R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-68375807131911807572007-08-21T16:19:00.000-05:002007-08-21T16:19:00.000-05:00Iama......C....I am a C-H....I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-...I<BR/>am<BR/>a......<BR/><BR/>C....<BR/><BR/>I am a C-H....<BR/><BR/>I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N....<BR/><BR/>And I have C-H-R-I-S-T in my H-E-A-R-T and I will L-I-V-E E-T-E-R-N-A-L-L-Y<BR/><BR/>[My kids watch "Cedarmont Kids" singing this old children's church song, and with the IamanM and IamaP going back and forth, I just couldn't resist! :-) There is no commentary here, just frivolity.]Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-39845546111902729152007-08-21T16:13:00.000-05:002007-08-21T16:13:00.000-05:00Dear Bart,Let me congratulate you on clearly point...Dear Bart,<BR/><BR/>Let me congratulate you on clearly pointing out many of the relevant issues with regard to the problem of extreme contextualization strategies. This one sentence alone says so much: "It is not just that there is 'not enough light' (Greeson's words) in the Qur'an—there is no light there at all." The theological errors of the Camel Method begin with the supposition that the Malcolm Yarnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05527418213499559637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-22919976164220315832007-08-21T12:42:00.000-05:002007-08-21T12:42:00.000-05:00Bro. M.,Thanks for the report. I receive your test...Bro. M.,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the report. I receive your testimony about our brethren with gladness. Your concluding sentence gives me pause: "The Camel method might have some problems, but it does not represent a C5/C6 approach in the slightest."<BR/><BR/>Your account of a meeting that you attended and I did not—on that ground I must and do yield to you entirely. But the book I have read Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-51848176590312749202007-08-21T12:02:00.000-05:002007-08-21T12:02:00.000-05:00Bart,Indeed C5 and C6 workers do exist, but it see...Bart,<BR/><BR/>Indeed C5 and C6 workers do exist, but it seems they number much fewer than any of us would be lead to believe. I think they must just publish frequently.<BR/><BR/>At a recent inter-agency meeting on Muslim work there were quite a few IMB personnel from many different regions in attendance. None of these people even came close to being C5 or C6. In fact, in our IMB-only sessionsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-87097312328039003152007-08-21T11:43:00.001-05:002007-08-21T11:43:00.001-05:00Bro. M.,The fatal flaw, IMHO, in your argument tha...Bro. M.,<BR/><BR/>The fatal flaw, IMHO, in your argument that the transmission of Baptist ecclesiology amounts to the propagation of Southern Baptist religious subculture lies in the great difficulty I think you would have in identifying much of a SBC religious subculture that actually practices such an ecclesiology.<BR/><BR/>Folks like Dr. Yarnell who are calling us to biblical ecclesiology are Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-26709160412348543782007-08-21T11:43:00.000-05:002007-08-21T11:43:00.000-05:00Forgive me for getting so off post. I was asked a...Forgive me for getting so off post. I was asked a direct question by a leading Baptist theologian and out of respect for my authorities felt I was obliged to answer. Although something tells me he was probably just wanting to put me in my place.<BR/><BR/>***IamanM***Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-38834505668532232532007-08-21T11:35:00.000-05:002007-08-21T11:35:00.000-05:00Dr. Yarnell,I did not say one word accusing the Se...Dr. Yarnell,<BR/><BR/>I did not say one word accusing the Seven Guidelines for CP statement of being non-biblical. I said that it seeks to impose a religious sub-culture when it comes to cross-cultural CP. I think the problem is that while I do see "Baptist" ecclesiology as biblical ecclesiology, for me that does not preclude seeing "baptist" ecclesiology as also being biblical. For example, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61302025451380875362007-08-21T10:27:00.000-05:002007-08-21T10:27:00.000-05:00And, of course, in the Celestial City beyond.And, of course, in the Celestial City beyond.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-58192835244399814362007-08-21T09:56:00.000-05:002007-08-21T09:56:00.000-05:00Bro. Strider,You should ACTUALLY read the book. Be...Bro. Strider,<BR/><BR/>You should ACTUALLY read the book. Because people in the US are ACTUALLY training people according to its contents.<BR/><BR/>And, if some reports I receive are to be believed, some personnel within your org are actually being pressured to use it contrary to their convictions. I'm glad that the same is not true of you. I hope that it is not true of anyone.<BR/><BR/>And Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-58736050887088035662007-08-21T06:52:00.000-05:002007-08-21T06:52:00.000-05:00Bro. Strider,Yes, I am an American- no dirty littl...Bro. Strider,<BR/><BR/>Yes, I am an American- no dirty little secret there. I think the post is about the book, the method it promotes, and anyone who might adhere to it.<BR/><BR/>As for hog-tying and sending home, surely you do not suggest that deceptive methods and gospel-compromising (or anything that smacks of either) should be overlooked out of some kind of blind company loyalty!? Are you Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-24699532582855932062007-08-21T04:03:00.000-05:002007-08-21T04:03:00.000-05:00They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shou...They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23:4<BR/><BR/>Malcolm, I will not hijack Bart's post here to discuss the CP Guidelines written up at my old alma martyr SWBTS but I will say that I chuckled a little when I got to the point of regenerate Church membership in light of the rejection of Thom Ascol's Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07347436154893544535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-54112082082032718762007-08-21T03:28:00.000-05:002007-08-21T03:28:00.000-05:00Ok, so are we discussing two different things here...Ok, so are we discussing two different things here?<BR/><BR/>'The missionary folks interacting with this and the previous related post often want to bring into the equation their own personal experience or "what is ACTUALLY being done" in order to defend the Camel Method.'<BR/><BR/>I know that I am talking to Americans when a book written on a subject is more authoritative than what is 'actually Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07347436154893544535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-68234626796533502052007-08-20T22:54:00.000-05:002007-08-20T22:54:00.000-05:00Dear IamanM,The Southwestern Seminary Theological ...Dear IamanM,<BR/><BR/>The Southwestern Seminary Theological Studies Divison statement, "Seven Guidelines for Church Planting Which Reflect Baptist Ecclesiology," is a direct reflection upon the Baptist Faith and Message articles on ecclesiology. You state that it seeks an imposition of a religious subculture. Perhaps you would care to be specific as to exactly what you see as non-biblical in Malcolm Yarnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05527418213499559637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-15779805944176409852007-08-20T17:33:00.000-05:002007-08-20T17:33:00.000-05:00Thanks, Hog Man. You read me correctly.[In the int...Thanks, Hog Man. You read me correctly.<BR/><BR/>[In the interests of full disclosure, I should mention that I was raised an ASU Indians fan] :-)Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-12155147066911669552007-08-20T17:32:00.000-05:002007-08-20T17:32:00.000-05:00Jeff,My brother, I admit that the rhetorical tone ...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>My brother, I admit that the rhetorical tone increased in my conclusion, but only because I'm getting ready to extend the altar-call in my next-and-final post on this subject.<BR/><BR/>As you can see in my response to our Bro. M, I believe that the concepts expressed at the end are a very real risk of this method. Hog Man (like all true Arkansans) has read me with great wisdom and Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-21649824528606014562007-08-20T17:28:00.000-05:002007-08-20T17:28:00.000-05:00Bro. M. (I Am An M),Backwards guy that I am, I'll ...Bro. M. (I Am An M),<BR/><BR/>Backwards guy that I am, I'll start at the end and work my way upwards. Southern Baptist subculture I would identify as our preference for caserole, our insistence upon covering the elements of the LS with white bedsheets, our predeliction for the Gaithers or Casting Crowns, our love for Roberts Rules of Order, etc.<BR/><BR/>Regenerate church membership, the LordshipBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-66125920892948934782007-08-20T16:54:00.000-05:002007-08-20T16:54:00.000-05:00Jeff,I disagree that any error was committed with ...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I disagree that any error was committed with the concluding paragraph. It appears to me that Mr. Barebones has simply made a prophetic statement as to what the logical outworkings of the camel method might well be. Admitedly, the statement was made in more "culturally relevant terms" than were used in the rest of the post. (I can just see John Hagee picking up on that Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-82357497981515115732007-08-20T14:57:00.000-05:002007-08-20T14:57:00.000-05:00Dear Brother Dr. BB,As with your previous assessme...Dear Brother Dr. BB,<BR/><BR/>As with your previous assessment of the PPL issue, your assessment in recent days of The Camel Method (in book form) has been spot on. This article is an excellent wrap-up.<BR/><BR/>However, you have committed a freshman error in your concluding paragraph. You suddenly inflated the rhetoric with the "Koran-toting" business in a way that undermines the rest of the Jeff Richard Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03733241874625816333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-73621043118115455602007-08-20T11:35:00.000-05:002007-08-20T11:35:00.000-05:00I must agree with my fellow IMB worker that your c...I must agree with my fellow IMB worker that your critique of the Camel method, in this instance at least, is off the mark. Without addressing your previously stated concerns, I believe that you are reading far beyond what Greeson meant by using the word "translate". <BR/><BR/>You have stated the need for some aspects of contextualization and cultural appropriateness. I honestly believe that isAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-58773848086351907502007-08-20T08:55:00.000-05:002007-08-20T08:55:00.000-05:00Les,While your assessment is certainly true, I wou...Les,<BR/><BR/>While your assessment is certainly true, I would hesitate to equivocate our problems and the problem of renaming God to placate another religion. In other words, I could not bring myself to say that we, if we were to follow this bishop's guidance, would be no worse off than we are now.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-178840867561648212007-08-20T08:53:00.000-05:002007-08-20T08:53:00.000-05:00Geoff,I must say, every successful conversion of a...Geoff,<BR/><BR/>I must say, every successful conversion of a Muslim that I personally know about took place with a young person. You may be onto something there.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-171512678008000152007-08-20T08:51:00.001-05:002007-08-20T08:51:00.001-05:00Bro. Strider,I know that the topic is controversia...Bro. Strider,<BR/><BR/>I know that the topic is controversial, and I know that the stakes are high. Thank you for affirming the practice of our IMB brethren.<BR/><BR/>I know not which paragraph demarcates "the end" at which I "lost [you] completely." I want to further the conversation with you. Can you give me a little more about where I erred? Can you show me from <I>The Camel</I> how I erred atBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-2166843696065225972007-08-20T08:51:00.000-05:002007-08-20T08:51:00.000-05:00Ron P, You said, "It is amazing that those who cla...Ron P, <BR/><BR/>You said, "It is amazing that those who claim to be followers of Christ can be so quick to forsake Him." <BR/><BR/>I agree. Unfortunately, it happens in American churches all the time. <BR/><BR/>LesWriterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07212653606124739664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-45426271541242350612007-08-20T07:21:00.000-05:002007-08-20T07:21:00.000-05:00Bart,I blogged on the Dutch bishop last week. The...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I blogged on the Dutch bishop last week. The reaction of Muslims to his suggestion that everyone call God, "Allah," goes far to support your point.<BR/><BR/>I think it is quite clear that the cultures within the Muslim world are not only "steeped," in Islam, they are controlled by Islam. The sharia law (which has made inroads in Great Britain, unbelievably) demands a Muslim Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com