tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post7761149068773579311..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: Of Muslims and MormonsBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-24559114338424025852007-08-04T13:46:00.000-05:002007-08-04T13:46:00.000-05:00How long will ought we to give a Muslim to get to ...How long will ought we to give a Muslim to get to this stage of believing the points you suggested? It usually does not happen overnight. I know Muslim background believers (MBBS) who share your exact beliefs as listed below but only after a journey started somewhere along the lines using the CAMEL method: <BR/><BR/>" 1. He must reject the Qur'an as not being holy scripture......."<BR/> <Bill van den Akkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465365418076747188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-41327685537431607532007-07-21T12:27:00.000-05:002007-07-21T12:27:00.000-05:00Big G,I didn't realize our readership was so diver...Big G,<BR/><BR/>I didn't realize our readership was so diverse, that we would have Mormons among our audience!<BR/><BR/>We receive the Old Testament from the Jews, since God has placed the Old Testament into their trust (Romans 3:2). They do not acknowledge the apocryphal books, so neither do we.<BR/><BR/>We acknowledge the New Testament.<BR/><BR/>Save up some money for a big vacation next year, Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-26380579427028155122007-07-20T20:04:00.000-05:002007-07-20T20:04:00.000-05:00"So, why don't we regard Mormons as Christians? Be..."So, why don't we regard Mormons as Christians? Because they claim special revelation subsequent and in addition to the Bible, redefine Jesus and God, adulterate the gospel, confuse truth with error."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Who's "adding" to the Bible? Which Bible? Which version? Which translation? Did the Catholics "add" to the Bible or did the Protestants "take away from". How could anyone be Big Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14454684660214657229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-55620935183985390642007-07-20T19:31:00.000-05:002007-07-20T19:31:00.000-05:00So, why don't we regard Mormons as Christians? Bec...So, why don't we regard Mormons as Christians? Because they claim special revelation subsequent and in addition to the Bible, redefine Jesus and God, adulterate the gospel, confuse truth with error.Big Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14454684660214657229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-73387408010900121582007-07-20T19:29:00.000-05:002007-07-20T19:29:00.000-05:00I appreciate your enunciation of the need for the ...I appreciate your enunciation of the need for the believer, regardless of background, to fully embrace the grace-salvation of Christ and leave behind the life of works-slavation (that is not a typo!).<BR/><BR/>I personally feel that the issue is more on the point of that every believer must surrender to the clear commands of Christ and the consequences of His exclusivity. We in America have AndyHigghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05987950156093261915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-52331795391970464992007-07-20T18:01:00.000-05:002007-07-20T18:01:00.000-05:00Robert,I'm glad to share agreement with you, broth...Robert,<BR/><BR/>I'm glad to share agreement with you, brother.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-7334954157561545362007-07-20T17:00:00.000-05:002007-07-20T17:00:00.000-05:00Bart, you have well articulated what I was trying ...Bart, you have well articulated what I was trying to say. Concerning rejecting the Muslim God, I don't see why that concept would be any different from I Thess. 1:9-10 -- "<I>For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-43782736971101286792007-07-20T16:02:00.000-05:002007-07-20T16:02:00.000-05:00Rick,I have seen a Muslim come to faith in Christ,...Rick,<BR/><BR/>I have seen a Muslim come to faith in Christ, although not much opportunity exists in Farmersville, Texas. I would encourage you to remember that whenever you present the gospel you have succeeded already. The rest is in the Lord's hands and entirely beyond your power.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-18203205985871795112007-07-20T16:00:00.001-05:002007-07-20T16:00:00.001-05:00Tim & Jeremy,I do recommend that you read the book...Tim & Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>I do recommend that you read the book for yourself.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-34681337880009109082007-07-20T16:00:00.000-05:002007-07-20T16:00:00.000-05:00SWBTS Student,Greeson has had a widespread forum a...SWBTS Student,<BR/><BR/>Greeson has had a widespread forum already, having published this book twice and having spoken about it in many places, so he has a HUGE head start on me. I'll put up my thoughts about the book. Then, he is more than welcome to come and express his thoughts here. I would be glad to consider hosting a dialogue comparable to Yarnell-Rogers, although I can think of people Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-26814579926985117872007-07-20T14:20:00.000-05:002007-07-20T14:20:00.000-05:00Bart,I've led people to faith in Christ but never ...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I've led people to faith in Christ but never a Muslim. I've tried here in the states, Turkey, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. One could say I’m a global failure in reaching them. Perhaps a blogger(s) could comment from their successes and show us a more excellent way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-55521578300603073012007-07-20T13:35:00.000-05:002007-07-20T13:35:00.000-05:00Bart,Good stuff. It certainly appears that the Ca...Bart,<BR/><BR/>Good stuff. It certainly appears that the Camel Method is (unintentionally) propagating a false gospel. However, I will reserve judgment until I have personally read the book for myself... which will hopefully be next week. Perhaps, then, I will attempt to offer my two cents on the subject. God bless!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JLGJeremy Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10905768244404899040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-38882587559057929112007-07-20T13:32:00.000-05:002007-07-20T13:32:00.000-05:00Great link about the Neil Armstrong hoax! How do ...Great link about the Neil Armstrong hoax! How do you find these things?<BR/><BR/>A Simple Student @ SWBTSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-79483841704822331572007-07-20T12:53:00.000-05:002007-07-20T12:53:00.000-05:00Bart,I think South Asia M has a good point. Inste...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I think South Asia M has a good point. Instead of simply offering a critique on your own that completely denounces the Camel method, you could perhaps start a dialogue with Kevin Greeson first. On further thought, I think that you could even have an open dialogue similar to what has occurred between <A HREF="http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/07/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-10852213455709246642007-07-20T12:41:00.000-05:002007-07-20T12:41:00.000-05:00Bart,Where can I get a copy of the Camel Method?Yo...Bart,<BR/>Where can I get a copy of the Camel Method?<BR/><BR/>You have got me me more than intersted.<BR/><BR/>TGTim Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10885623376514366024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-70768365973312484202007-07-20T11:58:00.000-05:002007-07-20T11:58:00.000-05:00South Asia M,I should also clarify, Greeson has th...South Asia M,<BR/><BR/>I should also clarify, Greeson has the same liberty that you have (and indeed, as is available to all) to come here and discuss the specifics.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-34773331473567593312007-07-20T11:57:00.000-05:002007-07-20T11:57:00.000-05:00South Asia M,If the method cannot be understood wi...South Asia M,<BR/><BR/>If the method cannot be understood without journeying halfway across the world, then we probably ought not to try to encapsulate it into a book. If the book misrepresents the method, then we probably ought to discontinue its publication. My experience up to this point is precisely the experience that anyone will have who is planning to read this book and emulate this method.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-44265910852668363032007-07-20T11:45:00.000-05:002007-07-20T11:45:00.000-05:00BartI believe that you would do best to dialogue w...Bart<BR/>I believe that you would do best to dialogue with Kevin G., the author, before you give any more of your critique. You haven't lived it, so you are not in a position to speak on it, until you truly understand it, which I can tell from your comments, you probably don't. I've been with Kevin and have experienced his heart, along with the people he has trained. Why don't you plan a trip to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-79860803179650758472007-07-20T11:01:00.000-05:002007-07-20T11:01:00.000-05:00David,I don't want us to get caught up in the term...David,<BR/><BR/>I don't want us to get caught up in the terminology. The problem is with the <B>underlying concept</B> of God, not the word used.<BR/><BR/>Now, one cannot divorce word from concept. The debate over which terminology best conveys the concept is one that we can have charitably. But we (Christians) must be in agreement that the Muslim god cannot be interchanged with the Christian GodBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-30871286159127014322007-07-20T10:58:00.000-05:002007-07-20T10:58:00.000-05:00Robert,I do not think that I disagree. Your point,...Robert,<BR/><BR/>I do not think that I disagree. Your point, if I understand it, is to make the change in viewpoint less a work of man prerequisite to conversion and more a work of God part-and-parcel with conversion. In other words, if I understand you correctly, we're talking about the temporal/causal relationship between repentance and regeneration. I do believe that repentance from the Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-82059656091459968782007-07-20T10:57:00.000-05:002007-07-20T10:57:00.000-05:00David, I'm not an Arabic speaker, but my first gue...David, I'm not an Arabic speaker, but my first guess would be that Arabic speakers -- at least those who are Muslims -- would understand the "true" Allah to be the Muslim "God". I don't thnk the word is a problem in most contexts.R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-66230927656297095762007-07-20T10:32:00.000-05:002007-07-20T10:32:00.000-05:00bart,concerning the name "allah" for God when talk...bart,<BR/><BR/>concerning the name "allah" for God when talking about muslims, what would you say about our m's saying "the true allah?" would that sufficiently answer the "allah" problem? you know, allah would be for the muslim god, and whatever the phrase would be in arabic...the true allah, or the one, true allah when talking about the name of the true God of the bible? would this not volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-9281361565405063902007-07-20T10:27:00.000-05:002007-07-20T10:27:00.000-05:00Bart, I'm glad you've got the book and have starte...Bart, I'm glad you've got the book and have started the review. This is a very problematic issue. <BR/><BR/>There's one thing that I would word differently (I don't think we really disagree). You listed 5 things that "must characterize conversion of a Muslim to Christianity." I agree, except that to me the word "must" seems to give the connotation that they "must" reject these things in order to R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-64042979445016514182007-07-20T10:08:00.000-05:002007-07-20T10:08:00.000-05:00Geoff,Well said. What remains is to show whether T...Geoff,<BR/><BR/>Well said. What remains is to show whether <I>The Camel</I> takes us there or not. Stay tuned for the future articles in this series.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-8394877341882720562007-07-20T09:37:00.000-05:002007-07-20T09:37:00.000-05:00As we examine appropriate ways of engaging culture...As we examine appropriate ways of engaging culture, I am dismayed to see on so many Christian blogger profiles the astrological and zodiac designations. These have their root in Eastern/Hindu philosophies. In critiquing evangelism toward Muslim, might some of the same criticisms be leveled toward this seemingly innocuous practice? Would one compare astrological signs in witnessing to a Hindu?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com