tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post7825357925017744014..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: Quick Thoughts about T.D. Jakes and TrinitarianismBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-42778834632939231312012-01-28T11:09:45.434-06:002012-01-28T11:09:45.434-06:00Marty,
I'm sorry you feel the need to give me...Marty,<br /><br />I'm sorry you feel the need to give me the last word. You have clarified what I thought you meant when you wrote, <i>"My scenario is that Jakes had a misunderstanding of the Trinity at the time of his salvation, not that he never was Oneness."</i><br /><br />I believe I answered your position in my previous comment. Maybe we are talking past each other.<br /><br />Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-55523931785621862842012-01-28T10:21:10.846-06:002012-01-28T10:21:10.846-06:00Bart,
Thanks for your explanation of your position...Bart,<br />Thanks for your explanation of your position. I'm trying to process all of this across a lot of fronts which is contributing to my lack of clarity at times.<br /><br />I'm not convinced that every early Christian believer was as clear on the subject as you make them out to be. The early churches were riddled with errors, <i>ergo</i> the amount of correction in the epistles, Marty Durenhttp://martyduren.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-87054169696845339182012-01-27T18:15:49.306-06:002012-01-27T18:15:49.306-06:00The main concern I have is that while he did state...The main concern I have is that while he did state that he believes in the Trinity, he was not willing to do the right thing and denounce modalism as heresy and modalists as heretics.Joe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-34036154723217954182012-01-27T16:57:27.295-06:002012-01-27T16:57:27.295-06:00One more item. His alumni page states, Bishop T. D...One more item. His alumni page states, <i>Bishop T. D. Jakes He currently is the pastor of The Potter's House, in Dallas, Texas. His views on God and water baptism is Oneness Pentecostal.</i>"<br /><br />Source: http://www.ficu.edu/Alumni/Jakes.html<br /><br />This indicates that further that he professed Oneness doctrine while leading the Potter's House which would have been years Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-39704447642011778432012-01-27T16:56:10.275-06:002012-01-27T16:56:10.275-06:00Marty,
Pointing, again, to 1 John, those who go o...Marty,<br /><br />Pointing, again, to 1 John, those who go out from us on matters regarding the nature of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, never were part of us.<br />If, at any point, Jakes embraced Oneness theology (which is <i>ipso facto</i> a denial of the Trinity…that's what Oneness theology is…that's what JAKES said that Oneness theology is, if the transcripts Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-52335686344316586922012-01-27T16:54:42.286-06:002012-01-27T16:54:42.286-06:00Marty,
Now you're confusing me. I thought yo...Marty, <br /><br />Now you're confusing me. I thought you were saying that Jakes was saved in a Oneness church and that he did not really understand what he believed so he should get a pass on the Trinity. This is why I quoted him explaining that he defended Oneness doctrine to show that he knew what he believed about the Trinity so he did not have an excuse.<br /><br />Furthermore, I thoughtMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-2355094327720408492012-01-27T16:37:40.051-06:002012-01-27T16:37:40.051-06:00Mark,
I'm not arguing that Jakes was never One...Mark,<br />I'm not arguing that Jakes was <i>never</i> Oneness. (At least I didn't mean to do it if I did.) <br /><br />But, I don't see Jakes equating his move to Oneness with salvation; did I miss that? Bart's point is that Jakes was not saved <i>until</i> he acknowledged God in three Persons, blessed Trinity. Which, as it turns out, was 11 years ago (at the latest) in the CT Marty Durenhttp://martyduren.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-18753937314479066932012-01-27T16:23:23.373-06:002012-01-27T16:23:23.373-06:00Concering Jakes' answers at ER2, here's a ...Concering Jakes' answers at ER2, here's a great interview with a former Oneness pastor/theologian who now espouses full trinitarianism: http://grbcav.org/2012/01/er2-qa-with-a-former-oneness-pastor/ He easily sees through Jakes' smokescreen. Read this and you may reconsider your statement that "Jakes's statement satisfies me that he is a Trinitarian."Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12478241415583678161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20386280217313255102012-01-27T16:04:48.159-06:002012-01-27T16:04:48.159-06:00Thanks, Mark. I appreciate that you have been foll...Thanks, Mark. I appreciate that you have been following this longer and more carefully than I have.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-59208329359850045552012-01-27T15:44:08.669-06:002012-01-27T15:44:08.669-06:00Marty,
Jakes is on record stating, "And yes,...Marty,<br /><br />Jakes is on record stating, "<i>And yes, I did grow up in a Oneness church. I started there. I started in a Baptist church, but at around 16 or so I did become involved with Oneness. I used to adamantly defend every tenant of what they believed.</i>"<br /><br />It seems the Jakes knew/knows exactly what he believed and defended.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01410144337505012175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-47009270572468929662012-01-27T15:33:10.467-06:002012-01-27T15:33:10.467-06:00Marty,
I don't UNDERSTAND the Trinity, yet I ...Marty,<br /><br />I don't UNDERSTAND the Trinity, yet I accept it. Anyone who has rejected the Trinity might be characterized as someone who has failed to understand. That simply was not what I meant by speaking about understanding the Trinity.<br /><br />What he's now disavowing is that to which he once subscribed. Yes, he might frame that story of conversion as one of increasing Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-84244428829282355042012-01-27T15:11:08.080-06:002012-01-27T15:11:08.080-06:00Thanks, Bart.
I'm not sure I was clear, thou...Thanks, Bart. <br /><br />I'm not sure I was clear, though. My point is not what Jakes is now disavowing. You indicated a) he should be baptized at the point he became a Trinitarian. Yet in the comment thread you indicated b) "Let me add, before anyone asks, that I am not saying that it is necessary to UNDERSTAND the Trinity before becoming a Christian. If so, we're all in trouble. Marty Durenhttp://martyduren.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-37029256231189838502012-01-27T14:30:09.935-06:002012-01-27T14:30:09.935-06:00Dwight: "If Bishop Jakes is a prosperity prea...Dwight: "If Bishop Jakes is a prosperity preacher, the same allegation must be leveled against every SBC capital stewardship fund-raising program that I'm aware of-that usually tell those who pledge that they can anticipate blessings from God related to their giving.If Bishop Jakes is a prosperity preacher, we must also label Bruce Wilkinson author of "The Prayer Of Jabez" a Stephennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-17289685775240518182012-01-27T14:25:37.843-06:002012-01-27T14:25:37.843-06:00Good afternoon, Marty,
My statement, to quote exa...Good afternoon, Marty,<br /><br />My statement, to quote exactly, was "When Jakes became a Trinitarian, he became a Christian." I did not speculate as to when that happened. <br /><br />Jakes himself said that he had been a modalist in the past. He describes his movement to Trinitarianism as just that, a movement: "I began to understand that some of the dogma that I’d been taught Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-50582793920926548902012-01-27T13:58:18.818-06:002012-01-27T13:58:18.818-06:00Hi Bart,
I'm back from the dead temporarily.
...Hi Bart,<br /><br />I'm back from the dead temporarily.<br /><br />I'm curious as to your comment about Jakes just now being saved because he's a confessed Trinitarian. He has stated that he was saved as a young man (teen, I think) with a Methodist/Baptist/and Pentecostal heritage. Apparently at that time he was in a Oneness Pentecostal church. According to you, a person can be saved Marty Durenhttp://martyduren.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-22537880999592600312012-01-27T10:59:14.654-06:002012-01-27T10:59:14.654-06:00Aaron,
I agree with every statement in your comme...Aaron,<br /><br />I agree with every statement in your comment. (Not that you are suggesting one…) I don't see any conflict between what you have written here and what I have written.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61541494972149542022012-01-27T10:33:14.944-06:002012-01-27T10:33:14.944-06:00I stated on SBC Voices that there is a line betwee...I stated on SBC Voices that there is a line between preaching economic empowerment and preaching a prosperity gospel. <br /><br />I think Jakes over the years has probably crossed that line a few times or more. Rev. McKissic makes a good point when he brings up capital campaigns. I think there's a line between acceptable capital campaign pitches and preaching a prosperity gospel. <br /><brBig Daddy Weavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270791070315400815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-32521042809304420852012-01-27T10:25:33.943-06:002012-01-27T10:25:33.943-06:00Let me add, before anyone asks, that I am not sayi...Let me add, before anyone asks, that I am not saying that it is necessary to UNDERSTAND the Trinity before becoming a Christian. If so, we're all in trouble. Rather, I'm saying that it is necessary NOT TO DENY the biblical teachings about the nature of Jesus and the nature of God.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-5957603484208215442012-01-27T10:19:23.786-06:002012-01-27T10:19:23.786-06:00Dwight,
There's no doubt that something "...Dwight,<br /><br />There's no doubt that something "has been added," although there's definitely no "now" associated with it. The idea that non-Trinitarians are not Christians goes back at least 1700 years, no matter whose vantage-point on the question you take.<br /><br />Those who support the idea, of course, believe it goes back much further than the fourth century Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-15617385526362438222012-01-26T23:58:55.097-06:002012-01-26T23:58:55.097-06:00Bart,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Confe...Bart,<br /><br />Thanks for your thoughtful response.<br /><br />Confessing Jesus as Lord and repenting of sins are the non-negotiable biblical requirements of salvation(Mark 1:14; Acts 16:31;Romans 10:9). Have we now added an understanding and confession of the Trinity?<br /><br />DwightDwight McKissichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05659524808682873078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-25813093969651712782012-01-26T21:25:09.668-06:002012-01-26T21:25:09.668-06:00Bart
I think the biggest problem is not what Jake...Bart<br /><br />I think the biggest problem is not what Jakes said but rather what Jakes DIDN'T say. He said he is Trinitarian. Great. Congratulations to him. Clap, clap, clap.<br /><br />What he didn't say is that modalism is a heresy and that modalists are not Christians. In fact, he said (according to Trevin Wax):<br /><br /><i>But how they (modalists-joe) explain the Godhead is Joe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-4439005157157389932012-01-26T21:13:25.477-06:002012-01-26T21:13:25.477-06:00Dwight,
I do believe, together with all of Chalce...Dwight,<br /><br />I do believe, together with all of Chalcedonian Christianity, that modalism is heresy. Not just error, but heresy. To believe this is to believe that modalists are not Christians. This has been the predominant belief of Christians since the days of Athanasius. Indeed, to show some semblance of knowledge about Black Christianity after a sort, I might mention that this is the Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-38948420932200855792012-01-26T18:43:33.510-06:002012-01-26T18:43:33.510-06:00Bart,
The tone and tenor of my comments are comin...Bart,<br /><br />The tone and tenor of my comments are coming across as "throwing down" or unfriendly; for that I sincerely apologize. Although we often disagree, my love and respect for you runs deep. I was really surprised and pleased with much or most of what you wrote on this subject. My objections had to do with you labeling Bishop Jakes a prosperity preacher and your belief that Dwight McKissichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05659524808682873078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-63098137224652587412012-01-26T17:17:20.865-06:002012-01-26T17:17:20.865-06:00Sorry about that (failing to answer the question)....Sorry about that (failing to answer the question). It was an oversight on my part, not deliberate evasiveness. A symptom of blogging while simultaneously doing a couple of other things.<br /><br />I had in mind the clip I watched <a href="http://wired4truth.info/2011/10/03/prosperity-jakes-2/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I realize that sometimes things can get out of hand when you go on one of thoseBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-78733089444369249072012-01-26T17:04:08.906-06:002012-01-26T17:04:08.906-06:00Bart,
I am not well versed enough regarding Onene...Bart,<br /><br />I am not well versed enough regarding Oneness Pentecostal theology to render an informed opinion about a closer relationship between the SBC and the OP's.<br /><br />If the majority of the SBC embraces the IMB and NAMB tongues policies, then there would be no good reason to form a closer relationship with any Pentecostal group. There would only be tension and conflict. This Dwight McKissichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05659524808682873078noreply@blogger.com