tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post8687465925664417944..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: What's Cooperative about the Cooperative Program?Bart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61124920994290453362009-10-08T13:43:47.259-05:002009-10-08T13:43:47.259-05:00You are free to believe that people do not believe...<i>You are free to believe that people do not believe the Bible because they do not interpret as you do, but that does not make you right.</i> <br /><br />Well, I do believe it related to the points I raised. Further, I've felt the way I felt before I ever heard of the Conservative Resurrgence. I was actually an adult before I'd ever heard of the CR.Joe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-83438540510840213572009-10-08T13:33:10.055-05:002009-10-08T13:33:10.055-05:00Joe:
You said:"Further, any people who left ...Joe:<br /><br />You said:"Further, any people who left during the Conservative Resurrgence and got hurt have only their own selves to blame. When you hold to unbiblical theological positions (women can be pastors, the Bible "contains" the word of God rather than it "is" the word of God) you should not expect to be welcomed with open arms in a body of churches that Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-9888815218497866472009-10-08T12:49:03.659-05:002009-10-08T12:49:03.659-05:00Tom,
Serious question--What was I wrong about? I...Tom,<br /><br />Serious question--What was I wrong about? Is FBC-Decatur not part of the SBC? Was Broadway Baptist not part of the SBC til it was kicked out? Or is it your view that those two churches are not liberal?<br /><br />The church we are visiting now is not part of the SBC. However, it is complimentarian, teaches eternal security, baptism is by immersion for believers only, the BibleJoe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-87574956359790180732009-10-08T12:14:38.465-05:002009-10-08T12:14:38.465-05:00Joe Blackmon:
How can you be wrong about so many ...Joe Blackmon:<br /><br />How can you be wrong about so many things and yet believe that you are right? Remind me, did you not leave the SBC.Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-83297126303810683552009-10-08T09:52:53.456-05:002009-10-08T09:52:53.456-05:00The question is continually raised "How can t...The question is continually raised "How can there still be liberals in the SBC? Why haven't they been run out?" These questions are interesting and I'm sure someone somewhere cares about them and perhaps can even answer them. However, they are irrelevant.<br /><br />Is FBC-Decatur still in the SBC? <i>Yes</i> <br />Was Broadway Baptist an SBC church until this past summerJoe Blackmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05609279285784683781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-14892984660536861042009-10-08T09:18:26.821-05:002009-10-08T09:18:26.821-05:00Tom,
I was not trying to remove your freedom to h...Tom,<br /><br />I was not trying to remove your freedom to have your own opinion. I was merely demonstrating why it shouldn't convince anyone else to hold it with you. Neither of us are dispassionate in our analysis of the Conservative Resurgence.<br /><br />The CR succeeded, but did not succeed entirely. If it had not succeeded at all, neither you nor others who share your theological Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-10084412433662060462009-10-08T08:03:30.944-05:002009-10-08T08:03:30.944-05:00Bart:
You said to me:
"There are indeed libe...Bart:<br /><br />You said to me:<br />"There are indeed liberals still serving in state conventions. Tom Parker's exasperations with the ongoing defense of the truth are understandable, yet wrongheaded. One might equally say, "After 2000 years Christianity has not rid itself of all hypocrites. How can that be? Almost 731,000 days to get rid of them and they are still here." No Tom Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861689101266081092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-49254606905572627802009-10-07T14:14:27.630-05:002009-10-07T14:14:27.630-05:00Brother Bart,
I agree that the program should com...Brother Bart,<br /><br />I agree that the program should come through the state to the national. That allows more accountability and accessibility to CP funds. For instance, if the CP were to go national only , the SBC would then decline substantially IMHO.<br /><br />To another point,...I cannot think that the BFM2000 could become any more ambiguous and remain believable. It has been enlargedChris Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09477874901216715726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61768202422587739122009-10-07T09:14:12.696-05:002009-10-07T09:14:12.696-05:00Andrew:
Thanks.
I don't really want to suspe...Andrew:<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />I don't really want to suspect bad motives for the reasons people or churches give. It may be out of pride, but I don't know.<br /><br />I tend to think that giving money, or trying to get others to give more, is simply a reflection of a sincere desire to help the SBC agencies and ministries. If an individual church does that, it clearly reflects a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-43116618587727598422009-10-06T18:29:45.520-05:002009-10-06T18:29:45.520-05:00Bart and Louis,
I believe that I agree with your ...Bart and Louis,<br /><br />I believe that I agree with your sentiments about "company men" and the potential disaster of percentage giving requirements. However, I think that this is the direction of change that will come.<br /><br />I must admit that I had thought that the messenger allocation formula should be amended to change one per $250 to one per 1% CP...this to bring it in line Andrewhttp://adubhigg.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-49010731607972091022009-10-05T15:54:33.373-05:002009-10-05T15:54:33.373-05:00Anon and Bart:
Good question. Good answer.
The ...Anon and Bart:<br /><br />Good question. Good answer.<br /><br />The SBC founding/governing documents do not set high goals for giving to be a full participant in SBC life. <br /><br />And they set no requirement that a church participating in the SBC also participate in some other Baptist organization, state convention or association.<br /><br />This is the way it was set up and has been for Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-78824520514549036172009-10-05T14:02:31.191-05:002009-10-05T14:02:31.191-05:00Anonymous,
I haven't heard anyone say anythin...Anonymous,<br /><br />I haven't heard anyone say anything about messenger formulas. That's not really germane to this discussion, for several reasons:<br /><br />1. The formula for computing messengers for a church makes no mention of the Cooperative Program. Remember, the SBC existed for a long time before we even had a CP.<br /><br />The monetary portion of the formula awards messengersBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-52746598401455939282009-10-05T11:00:58.298-05:002009-10-05T11:00:58.298-05:00Bart,
Some are suggesting bypassing the state con...Bart,<br /><br />Some are suggesting bypassing the state conventions and sending money directly to the SBC. This might create a class of churches that relate to the sbc but not to a state convention and possibly not an association. I'm trying to remember whether it is possible in our current structure to relate to the SBC apart from being first related to a State Convention. I'm also Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-85411784985681696112009-10-03T08:45:15.520-05:002009-10-03T08:45:15.520-05:00I've followed the discussion with interest, bu...I've followed the discussion with interest, but have refrained from joining you guys while I was trying to meet a deadline on another assignment.<br /><br />Here's my take on things:<br /><br />1. The purpose of this series of posts is to try to discuss the theory of the Cooperative Program and to give an exposition of the ideal...the way that things ought to work.<br /><br />2. With thatBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-10111258135554379272009-10-03T08:33:56.367-05:002009-10-03T08:33:56.367-05:00Tim R.,
I knew I'd find something you were wr...Tim R.,<br /><br />I knew I'd find something you were wrong about eventually. :-)<br /><br />Yes, there is a historic relationship between the state conventions and the SBC, but I also had a historic relationship wih my appendix. I was uniquely attached to it, and it to me, ever since we came into being, but when that appendix became deadly, I gladly welcomed the surgeon's knife.<br /><Matt Bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10035601113330072618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-63718954064944445952009-10-03T04:55:24.843-05:002009-10-03T04:55:24.843-05:00Brothers Matt & Tim,
I find myself in a preca...Brothers Matt & Tim,<br /><br />I find myself in a precarious position--one of disagreement with you. The thesis of Brother Bart's article is that we have focused so much on "cooperative" that we have missed "program". The "Cooperative Program" was established with the state conventions in mind. To bypass the state convention and give directly to NashvilleTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-89754964901730072292009-10-02T23:16:46.725-05:002009-10-02T23:16:46.725-05:00Tim G.,
You ask, "who cares what is called o...Tim G.,<br /><br />You ask, "who cares what is called or who counts it?"<br /><br />For starters, I'd guess the man who lost the presidency a couple of years ago because of it. :-) He happens to be in a very key place now to suggest some changes. I hope he can suggest some good ones. <br /><br />Seriously though, I agree with your sentiments and think more churches will follow the Matt Bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10035601113330072618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-28211193447158763342009-10-02T20:11:24.947-05:002009-10-02T20:11:24.947-05:00One major thought in all of this is "who care...One major thought in all of this is "who cares what is called or who counts it?" We give a specific amount to the State and send a CP amount to the SBC EC. They can call is whatever they like but, we wanted the money to get out of the state and into the SBC main functions and missions. It was the only way to make it happen. When our older members saw the breakdown, they were Tim Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10885623376514366024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-6763846942282708542009-10-02T17:57:09.862-05:002009-10-02T17:57:09.862-05:00Louis,
I have great empathy for what your church ...Louis,<br /><br />I have great empathy for what your church is doing. I only wish that all of the money you were giving through the EC to the national CP could actually be counted as CP giving. If you were to designate it directly to the IMB then I would understand not counting it, but for SBC purposes, money given to the SBC CP ought to be counted as SBC CP giving. The states don't have toMatt Bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10035601113330072618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-80082880177052770152009-10-02T12:40:27.548-05:002009-10-02T12:40:27.548-05:00On the point of state conventions I will give my u...On the point of state conventions I will give my usual line.<br /><br />If you are in a state that has a convention that has not funded controversial things and whose employees did not work to derail the CR at every turn and provides really good services, AND you are in an older, historic congregation, you will love your state convention.<br /><br />However, in our situation, we have a state Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-31160573952217566502009-10-02T12:28:13.896-05:002009-10-02T12:28:13.896-05:00Interesting post.
Matt Brady, I have enjoyed read...Interesting post.<br /><br />Matt Brady, I have enjoyed reading much of what you have written here. I don't agree with the prescription you suggest, but your analysis of why we can't just say, "I believe the Bible" is enough. Churches that are going to run theological seminaries and send out missionaries better have a common understanding about a lot of issues.<br /><br />I Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-11712577546524407002009-10-02T10:56:13.658-05:002009-10-02T10:56:13.658-05:00Bart,
As I read these posts I still come back to t...Bart,<br />As I read these posts I still come back to the name "Cooperative Program." If you want to "Cooperate," then give "Cooperatively." If you want to do direct giving - then do so after you have "Cooperated." When I pastored a new church start in Wyoming, we facwed a certain dilemma. There was a pastor/missionary doing good work on a Reservation.Steve Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858156317482625056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-75262200328389064152009-10-02T10:24:44.019-05:002009-10-02T10:24:44.019-05:00Tim,
I think you are exactly right as to the prob...Tim,<br /><br />I think you are exactly right as to the problems of cooperative giving. <br /><br />I hope I'm wrong, but I'm guessing that the Great Commission Task Force will focus its efforts on the structure of the mission boards and the EC and ignore the giving issues. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but it's just too controversial to say out loud that some state conventions aren&Matt Bradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10035601113330072618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-19857513229219093832009-10-02T00:15:19.657-05:002009-10-02T00:15:19.657-05:00Matt,
I agree BUT I think the purpose of the post ...Matt,<br />I agree BUT I think the purpose of the post is to point us into an understanding of COOPERATIVE giving. I think this is difficult in states where the money stays. It is easy for Texans to support the normal plan - they have a great % breakdown. Others do not - thus the big problem!<br /><br />A point of interest - CP giving did not seem to hurt the national elections these past two Tim Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10885623376514366024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-91015038086756599032009-10-01T20:35:14.058-05:002009-10-01T20:35:14.058-05:00Tom,
There are always liberals lurking around. T...Tom,<br /><br />There are always liberals lurking around. They are wolves in sheep clothing. They are termites seeking to get into the wood of your house. The Devil always raises up a spy army of lost, Bible hating, sin loving liberals who seek to shipwreck the faith of others.<br /><br />And, if they want to send money to help fund our missions...then hurray. More power to them.<br /><br />volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.com