tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post2571135269296636508..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: Conflict of Whose Interests?Bart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-67738424446336917532008-01-10T19:49:00.000-06:002008-01-10T19:49:00.000-06:00Matt,I believe that this has been a fruitful discu...Matt,<BR/><BR/>I believe that this has been a fruitful discussion. I remind you of this: Some of the greatest leaders we have had in our history have served contrary to the requirement that you are stipulating. Great leadership does not grow on trees. In the absence of any specific and compelling threat, I believe that Southern Baptists should freely avail themselves of the best leadership that Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-62425385993671449912008-01-10T15:41:00.000-06:002008-01-10T15:41:00.000-06:00Bart,You are right. If the messengers elect Dr. M...Bart,<BR/><BR/>You are right. If the messengers elect Dr. Mohler, it will be because they wish to do so, not because anyone makes them. I prefer to move away from the issue of Dr. Mohler as a person. I have no beef with him. My concern, and it is shared by others, is that one man in two positions of authority in the same “chain” does not seem to be consistent with acting in a manner that is Matt Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062468709865488246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-68260446416905779102008-01-10T14:30:00.000-06:002008-01-10T14:30:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,After doing a brief bit of research, ...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>After doing a brief bit of research, I have found something that may be of interest. Everyone has pointed to Dr. Patterson as being the Pez. of the convention and at the same time Prez. of SEBTS and it was he that appointed the committee to revisit the BF&M.<BR/><BR/>When looking through some archives, one would find that General TC Pickney made the motion to study and Tim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-3123152097518680382008-01-09T17:11:00.000-06:002008-01-09T17:11:00.000-06:00Matt,Thank you for your citations from the convent...Matt,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your citations from the convention's governing documents. As you have shown, the structure of the convention is carefully drawn to protect it against nefarious exploits. And yet the framers who drafted such careful restraints deliberately placed no limitations on whom the messengers might elect as SBC president.<BR/><BR/>I believe that they did so in deference to our Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-8289157861734575012008-01-09T16:03:00.000-06:002008-01-09T16:03:00.000-06:00Just so I'm not misunderstood, I want to be clear ...Just so I'm not misunderstood, I want to be clear that I am <B>not</B> insinuating actual corruption within the SBC or by any president or nominee. There are other people who are doing that, some quite vehemently. I do, however believe that the occasion of a seminary president as SBC president just gives such persons more ammunition.Matt Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062468709865488246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-18098082655916791272008-01-09T16:00:00.000-06:002008-01-09T16:00:00.000-06:00Bart,As to the first point, I think we once again ...Bart,<BR/><BR/>As to the first point, I think we once again find ourselves in agreement that the fact that the performance of a president (e.g., Dr. Patterson) is not a valid argument for allowing him to hold (or not hold) both offices. Having dealt with that issue (or non-issue), we can discuss the second issue.<BR/><BR/>With regard to the office of the president (of the convention), he serves Matt Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062468709865488246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-83223159424148197282008-01-09T15:19:00.000-06:002008-01-09T15:19:00.000-06:00Matt,Thanks for answering me and being so polite i...Matt,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for answering me and being so polite in your answer, I really appreciate that as I was afraid my question could be taken wrongly.<BR/><BR/>Bart,<BR/><BR/>I like the way this post is turning out. It is becoming very educational about how the Convention works at a more detailed level. Maybe you would consider doing a post to spell things out for some of us more ignorant peopleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-31236146740483891262008-01-09T15:07:00.000-06:002008-01-09T15:07:00.000-06:00Tim,1. The president of the Executive Committee is...Tim,<BR/><BR/>1. The president of the Executive Committee is Dr. Morris Chapman.<BR/><BR/>2. The president of the SBC is an ex-officio member of the EC, but only a member.<BR/><BR/>3. The SBC By-laws (18. a.) <B>specifically anticipate</B> that an entity employee <B>is permitted</B> to be elected SBC President and to serve on the Executive Committee in that capacity.<BR/><BR/>4. You err slightly Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-69609428296943094342008-01-09T14:57:00.000-06:002008-01-09T14:57:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,I am trying to navigate these waters ...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>I am trying to navigate these waters and make a clear and concise decision. I have heard the argument about a conflict of interest and hear the concern, but I am not sure I grasp it completely.<BR/><BR/>Can you tell me if there is anything the President of the SBC can do on his own that will enhance the entity on which he serves more than other entities? I thought Tim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-58342844256302966272008-01-09T14:38:00.000-06:002008-01-09T14:38:00.000-06:00Matt,We are clearly missing one another somehow in...Matt,<BR/><BR/>We are clearly missing one another somehow in our attempts to communicate.<BR/><BR/>1. You continue to raise my comments about Dr. Patterson's role in the revision of the BF&M, intimating that I have somehow advanced an argument in favor of the election of entity heads as SBC presidents in this area of my post. I have not done so. Burleson has advanced this instance as an argument Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-64426609953060362122008-01-09T14:19:00.000-06:002008-01-09T14:19:00.000-06:00Trish,I first want to say that I mean to make no i...Trish,<BR/><BR/>I first want to say that I mean to make no implication whatsoever about Al Mohler’s character or integrity. From everything I know about him he is a man of God and a man of integrity (and I could say several other positive things). I would agree with you that a man who lacks integrity should neither be president of a seminary or president of the convention. However, my intent Matt Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062468709865488246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-75347323123305398102008-01-09T09:19:00.000-06:002008-01-09T09:19:00.000-06:00Matt,Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the oppo...Matt,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this important question with you.<BR/><BR/>First, with regard to the definition of "Conflict of Interest," whenever I applied it, I used not only the personal interests of the man, but also the private interests of the institution. Thus: "The BF&M committee appointments did not advance <B>Dr. Patterson's private and Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-406246162391094772008-01-09T08:42:00.000-06:002008-01-09T08:42:00.000-06:00Matt, If I am understanding your concerns correctl...Matt, <BR/><BR/>If I am understanding your concerns correctly, you are saying that just because Al Mohler is a Christian who is expected to operate with integrity, in this situation, it is presumed that he will not operate with integrity and will therefore do things as president of the conventation that favors SBTS? And that, for this reason, because it is presumed he will not have integrity, he Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-3009608872665095212008-01-08T23:14:00.000-06:002008-01-08T23:14:00.000-06:00Bart,I have an opinion on the matter of Mohler for...Bart,<BR/><BR/>I have an opinion on the matter of Mohler for SBC president. Setting aside the issues of Wade Burleson and a special offering, I believe we ought to look carefully at the issue of a potential SBC president who is also the head of one of its institutions. <BR/><BR/>There is certainly more than enough potential for conflict in such an arrangement. While you have chosen a Matt Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14062468709865488246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-63891539575472419262008-01-08T12:30:00.000-06:002008-01-08T12:30:00.000-06:00I do plan to offer a post someday soon that is act...I do plan to offer a post someday soon that is actually about this. :-)Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-84373081106895716602008-01-08T12:01:00.000-06:002008-01-08T12:01:00.000-06:00i'm all for the seminary prof.'s making more money...i'm all for the seminary prof.'s making more money. we ought to pay them more. but, personally, i just cant ask my church to have another special offering. <BR/><BR/>david :)volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-37281658811866947092008-01-08T11:35:00.000-06:002008-01-08T11:35:00.000-06:00Brother Bart,I am all for the seminary offering. ...Brother Bart,<BR/><BR/>I am all for the seminary offering. I am sorry Brothers David and William, but I still pick and choose which offerings we give to. Thus, another offering is not going to concern me because I can say no. (Seems like there was a slogan like that going around some years back.)<BR/><BR/>As to the Seminary offering, it is not a problem adding another offering. Remember the Tim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-34779922590237240432008-01-08T10:11:00.001-06:002008-01-08T10:11:00.001-06:00Obviously, this is connected with my passion over ...Obviously, this is connected with my passion over the underpayment of those who have shared spiritual things (ministerial training) with almost all of us who blog.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-32968932045582660382008-01-08T10:11:00.000-06:002008-01-08T10:11:00.000-06:00William and David,In theory, I agree. The problem ...William and David,<BR/><BR/>In theory, I agree. The problem comes when you start the "special offerings" game for the whole universe, and then stop it with part of the kiddies getting one and others not. The larger and better paid entities get a special offering PLUS the lion's share of the CP pie. The impoverished seminary professors get a sliver of the pie and no special offering.<BR/><BR/>Yet Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61068924930281071742008-01-08T10:03:00.000-06:002008-01-08T10:03:00.000-06:00i have to agree with william about the seminary of...i have to agree with william about the seminary offering. we're already taking up too many special offerings. we have lottie and annie. we have the state offering. we have the childrens home offering. and, a lot of churches have the gideons coming in from time to time. it almost gets to the point where a pastor feels like a fund raiser. <BR/><BR/>the cp was supposed to take care of the volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-23014873355672054122008-01-08T08:07:00.000-06:002008-01-08T08:07:00.000-06:00Well put.But no thanks on the seminary offering fo...Well put.<BR/><BR/>But no thanks on the seminary offering for me and my church. Such would only degrade the CP further.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11457157842977849666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-62247375078416652072008-01-07T22:12:00.000-06:002008-01-07T22:12:00.000-06:00Gentlemen (& Wes),First, nice shot Tim G.! Kudos ...Gentlemen (& Wes),<BR/><BR/>First, nice shot Tim G.! Kudos (sorry Wes-ley);-)<BR/><BR/>Aside from the movies and our fits of crying...I, too am thankful that Dr. Mohler has agreed to the nomination for SBC president.<BR/><BR/>Bart, well said. I say 'ditto' to the 'kudos' the other guys have already stated.<BR/><BR/>Sola Gratia!Scott Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12557513032999366380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-81908096560337856572008-01-07T18:28:00.000-06:002008-01-07T18:28:00.000-06:00Wes,That was a Wade answer (ouch) :).Wes,<BR/>That was a Wade answer (ouch) :).Tim Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10885623376514366024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-51123996753914165452008-01-07T17:58:00.000-06:002008-01-07T17:58:00.000-06:00Bart,Rather than answer your question, I'll simply...Bart,<BR/><BR/>Rather than answer your question, I'll simply remind you of the protections guaranteed to me by the fifth amendment to the U.S. constitution...Wes Kenneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09628590417301855884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-40286701237773769752008-01-07T17:54:00.000-06:002008-01-07T17:54:00.000-06:00Wes,The end of that movie didn't, by any chance, c...Wes,<BR/><BR/>The end of that movie didn't, by any chance, cause you to <A HREF="http://weskenney.net/?p=658" REL="nofollow">cry like a schoolgirl</A>, did it?Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.com