tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post8241964175447612898..comments2023-10-19T10:34:33.030-05:00Comments on Praisegod Barebones: The Pernicious Evil of Mere PreferenceBart Barberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comBlogger116125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-66855594065597918262008-01-16T15:23:00.000-06:002008-01-16T15:23:00.000-06:00Bart,Sorry for not getting to this post any sooner...Bart,<BR/><BR/>Sorry for not getting to this post any sooner, since this is a discussion I would have liked to have participated in. <BR/><BR/>I think your question hinges on the definition of "division" or "separation." As I see it, I am essentially united with all other true believers, both "universally" and "locally." However, I do not necessarily cooperate with them in every single ministry David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-27406853151635278062007-09-12T16:34:00.000-05:002007-09-12T16:34:00.000-05:00Bart, I have been thinking of your questions "If y...Bart, I have been thinking of your questions "If you apply Christ's prayer for unity solely to the universal church, then what does it really mean? We're in unity if we are all believers?"<BR/><BR/>Were S. A. Hayden and J. B. Cranfill in believers' unity during their gun fight on a train ride?R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-6356023733787177732007-09-11T18:19:00.000-05:002007-09-11T18:19:00.000-05:00I appreciate the post, brother.I appreciate the post, brother.R. L. Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10992710377193518029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-13556781166189589832007-09-08T22:26:00.000-05:002007-09-08T22:26:00.000-05:00So Bart and Colin,You would invite a Mormon to pre...So Bart and Colin,<BR/><BR/>You would invite a Mormon to preach in your church providing he sincerely held his beliefs but did not preach any peculiarly Mormon doctrine? If he promised to preach a good message on, say, abstention from alcohol or sexual faithfulness or biblical parenting you would welcome him? After all, he is unrepentant, yet seeking (in the very same way a pedobaptist is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-33535996124532557922007-09-08T21:50:00.000-05:002007-09-08T21:50:00.000-05:00Wonderful discussion here. I especially appreciate...Wonderful discussion here. I especially appreciated the comments of Bart, Peter, Steve, Colin, and all of those who are struggling through these important questions. However, the one statement that is perhaps the most memorable, perhaps because it is so evocative is by Bart Barber:<BR/><BR/>"Unity within local congregations is far more important than the equivalent of some transdenominational Malcolm Yarnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05527418213499559637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-49412444939393833532007-09-07T22:01:00.000-05:002007-09-07T22:01:00.000-05:00I know many Baptists(Southern even) who feel the s...I know many Baptists(Southern even) who feel the same way when asked Bart. But point taken under advisement. :)Debbie Kaufmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17748664558802779885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-8768449785533192482007-09-07T19:57:00.000-05:002007-09-07T19:57:00.000-05:00:) well said Bart, In fact my congregationalist be...:) well said Bart, In fact my congregationalist bethren own Bunyan as their own as much as we baptists do, and possibly with better reason.<BR/>SteveGroseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-6892398718506296462007-09-07T19:11:00.000-05:002007-09-07T19:11:00.000-05:00Debbie,Was Bunyan a Baptist? I'll let Bro. Bunyan ...Debbie,<BR/><BR/>Was Bunyan a Baptist? I'll let Bro. Bunyan answer for himself:<BR/><BR/>"You ask me next, 'How long is it since I was a Baptist?' and then add, 'It is an ill bird that bewrays his own nest."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Ans. I must tell you, avoiding your slovenly language, I know none to whom that title is so proper as to the disciples of John. And since you would know by what name I would be Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-20050274418578540262007-09-07T18:59:00.001-05:002007-09-07T18:59:00.001-05:00Paul,Colin's answer is mine.Paul,<BR/><BR/>Colin's answer is mine.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-13474986435718771812007-09-07T18:59:00.000-05:002007-09-07T18:59:00.000-05:00Colin,I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank...Colin,<BR/><BR/>I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you so much.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-10125322440467752412007-09-07T18:40:00.000-05:002007-09-07T18:40:00.000-05:00Colin: John Bunyan was a particular Baptist and he...Colin: John Bunyan was a particular Baptist and he would disagree with Bart.Debbie Kaufmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17748664558802779885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-23174909236499430162007-09-07T17:24:00.000-05:002007-09-07T17:24:00.000-05:00I apologize up front for not reading all the comme...I apologize up front for not reading all the comments in the thread.<BR/><BR/>I do believe the term 'unrepentant sinner' is the correct term to use. However, many here seem not to be able to distinguish between a sinner in open (knowledgeable) rebellion against the Lord, and those in unrepentant sin yet seeking to be obedient. Most of those in the second category would qualify to teach in my Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04852203994400117805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-67878187408532047502007-09-07T17:19:00.000-05:002007-09-07T17:19:00.000-05:00:)... man I'm in one the cake... :( ooops was that...:)... man I'm in one the cake... :( ooops was that gluttony ? <BR/>Ohhh nooo. <BR/>Ahhhh :) I guess I repented...<BR/>:) I can't wait to tell every one.. :( uh oh ... gossipping!! I can't win!!! I'll just drive down the store for my morning bash of twinkies..<BR/>SteveGroseys messageshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09256060632754175527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-40567443031825852502007-09-07T14:22:00.000-05:002007-09-07T14:22:00.000-05:00Oh come on, Bart. You can't have it both ways. Y...Oh come on, Bart. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that a church must follow biblical guidelines for pastoral leadership and then when they do call them legalists. That's just crazy. You just want to have your cake and eat it too. Good luck with that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-46410265936775117102007-09-07T13:58:00.000-05:002007-09-07T13:58:00.000-05:00Well, Paul, I guess I'm just not the legalist that...Well, Paul, I guess I'm just not the legalist that you are! :-)Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-53022963412484352862007-09-07T13:56:00.000-05:002007-09-07T13:56:00.000-05:00Bart,Even if they were unrepentant? That's astoni...Bart,<BR/><BR/>Even if they were unrepentant? That's astonishing. Yet your second sentence flatly contradicts your first as self-control is a biblical qualification for a pastor. One simply cannot be an unrepentant glutton, gossip or speeder and be self-controlled at the same time. That is, if words mean anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-72724053721854942832007-09-07T13:40:00.000-05:002007-09-07T13:40:00.000-05:00Paul,To make it an even 100...I would only limit t...Paul,<BR/><BR/>To make it an even 100...I would only limit the pastorate based upon the biblical qualifications. I would not bar anyone from the pastorate for being a speeder, a glutton, or a gossip.Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-29932533290910170432007-09-07T12:55:00.000-05:002007-09-07T12:55:00.000-05:00Bart,You do not see it as an inconsistency to sepa...Bart,<BR/><BR/>You do not see it as an inconsistency to separate from pedobaptists and yet not separate from unrepentant gluttons, gossips and speeders. Would you allow an unrepentant glutton, gossip or speeder to be the pastor of FBC Farmersville? If you say no then you are as inconsistent as you claim me to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-37391413353955763382007-09-07T12:35:00.000-05:002007-09-07T12:35:00.000-05:00Bart,Whether agreeing with them or not, do you thi...Bart,<BR/>Whether agreeing with them or not, do you think that this was/is one of the gears that drove within the context of the Conservative Resurgence? Isn't that one of the points argued so much, whether liberals/moderates were unrepentant sinners as claimed by the conservatives OR whether the conservatives were unrepentant sinners as claimed by the liberal/moderates within the context of theLukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14616108342223765777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-19310896863347761012007-09-07T12:09:00.000-05:002007-09-07T12:09:00.000-05:00Bro. Granneman,I have, on occasion, done so where ...Bro. Granneman,<BR/><BR/>I have, on occasion, done so where appropriate. With regard to a great many of the groups listed above, I find that the causes of separation are justified (i.e., are indeed matters of sin grave enough to warrant division).<BR/><BR/>I'm in the rare, happy position of pastoring a 142-year-old congregation that has never split. I think the positive application of what I'm Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-61233804220965979662007-09-07T11:57:00.000-05:002007-09-07T11:57:00.000-05:00Peter,Now you will deprive me of sleep..."My point...Peter,<BR/><BR/>Now you will deprive me of sleep...<BR/><BR/>"My point is this: if we place before us the pedobaptism of other Christian denominations and insist it is a matter of "church discipline" and "Unrepentant sinners" etc, such that we exercise discipline by "withdrawing fellowship," we commit grave error if we treat them in any other manner than our Lord instructed: "let him be to you asBart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-34704288468407921102007-09-07T11:56:00.000-05:002007-09-07T11:56:00.000-05:00Paul,"We baptized them by immersion and welcomed t...Paul,<BR/><BR/>"We baptized them by immersion and welcomed them into our church."<BR/><BR/>They repented. You received them. Exactly. But what about those who refuse to be immersed?Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-84231985861296208202007-09-07T11:54:00.000-05:002007-09-07T11:54:00.000-05:00Paul,Asked and answered already."I find in the New...Paul,<BR/><BR/>Asked and answered already.<BR/><BR/>"I find in the New Testament that biblical church discipline is exercised only over matters grave enough to warrant it."<BR/><BR/>Speeding and gluttony are indeed sins, and those who practice them without repentance are, <I>ipso facto</I>, "unrepentant sinners." But these are not matters grave enough to warrant biblical church discipline.<BR/><Bart Barberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021102240441576393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-42002399989552059402007-09-07T11:44:00.000-05:002007-09-07T11:44:00.000-05:00Bart,"That's nonsensical. Local congregations are ...Bart,<BR/><BR/>"That's nonsensical. Local congregations are not "superstructures." Local congregations are the central core of what the churches are. Unity within local congregations is far more important than the equivalent of some transdenominational re-release of "We Are the World" with group hugs for everyone."<BR/><BR/>This makes me wonder if you followed me. Anyway, if unity is on a local R. Grannemannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03236756140577644041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5643342666676162215.post-55883563414923838112007-09-07T11:35:00.000-05:002007-09-07T11:35:00.000-05:00My Brother R. Grannemann,Thank you for your very g...My Brother R. Grannemann,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your very good clarification. Peace.<BR/><BR/>With that, I am...<BR/><BR/>Peterpeter lumpkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00515936082186368659noreply@blogger.com