Sunday, March 11, 2007

A Lesson from History

I've mentioned this historical analogy twice in comment streams, but since (a) one of those comment streams I have now inadvertently vaporized, and (b) the other is over 100 comments long and not easy to sort through, I decided to give this thought an entry of its own. Guess how the Jews came to be dominated by the Romans? You'll find the story in this Wikipedia article, and it is all about one of God's people coming to the conclusion that he had been "wronged" and then appealing to an unbeliever for resolution of the conflict. The aftermath benefitted nobody.

42 comments:

Bro. Robin said...

Bart

Great analogy. I missed this the first time, but one of the commentators had this to say:

"Patterson has not said a word to defame these men in public. At least, I haven't heard of it. Tell me, does anyone find that admirable? I do."

Might I add that with me in private, he has not done it also.

Debbie said...

Patterson hasn't said a word period. I hardly find that admirable,considering the circumstances.

Jack Maddox said...

That is exactly right that Patterson has remained silent. In private conversation with him the other days as I assured him of my prayers in this matter for all involved, not once did he defame or defend...he simply made this statement "well, there is certainly a lot of hurt going around and It is hurtful" That’s it...no attack, no mean spirited lambasting of those who are striking out at him...and that Debbie is how men of character and integrity handle this kind of thing...he will not defend his position because it is a position of conviction...he will not attack back at those of you who attack him because he has for over 30 years stood up to this kind of bombastic ridicule and mean spirited assaults...the difference however this time is that it is coming from those who have greatly benefited from the sacrifices Paige made in the 70's and 80's. The SBC that Wade Burleson is so valiantly trying to save would not even exist as we know it if not for men Like Paige Patterson.
If you can’t understand that then it is no wonder you foster the attitude that you have towards him.

JRM

volfan007 said...

jack,

amen.

david

Matt Brady said...

Jack,

I'll echo David's "Amen!"

I have no delusions that Dr. Patterson is perfect. None of us fit that bill, but Dr. Patterson has earned this man's respect because of what he stands for. Those who make Dr. Patterson out to be a man driven by power and control ought to remember that when the Conservative Resurgence began, there was no guarantee that it would succeed. Dr. Patterson stood up and was counted as a leading voice of inerrancy when it was political suicide to do so. He was willing to put himself in a position where he has been attacked time and again, first by the liberals who were in power and now by those who think the liberals should still have a place at the table. I appreciate men like Dr. Patterson who are willing to take a stand for truth and then take the knocks that inevitably come with that stand.

I find it ironic that Dr. Patterson's greatest critics accuse him of working behind the scenes to pull all the strings in the SBC, when the critics, themselves are desperately trying to do exactly what they are accusing Dr. Patterson of and they will resort to any means, even the secular press and the secular courts to attain their goals.

Back to the point of Bart's post...Hyrcanus is a great example of how resorting to secular authorities can lead to the ruin of all the parties involved. Feeding news to the secular press and encouraging lawsuits in the secular courts is hardly defensible by history and certainly not by the Bible.

sbc pastor said...

Jack and Matt,

You are right on, sirs. Patterson stood on the inerrant Word of God when it was unpopular to do so. Interestingly, history appears to be repeating itself as moderates, liberals, charismatics, and other disgruntled groups have formed a coalition that is systematically attacking theological conservatives in a concerted effort to turn the SBC in a leftward theological direction. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

Bro. Robin said...

Sis Debbie

I might also say that David in accusations against him said very little, except to the Lord. It is by his silence to others that we can read some of the most beautiful writings ever done. The Psalms.

Jack Maddox said...

It is certainly true that PP is not perfect. We who defend him in this will be accused of blindly following him and the CR...it is just not true. PP has said and done things that should have been said or done differently...this is true of all of us. I believe it is possible that the Klouda incident maybe could have been handled in a different way, I don't know...I pastor FBC Dean, PP is the President of SWBTS. He does not know the ins and outs of my church, I do not know the behind the scene issues of SWBTS...however I do agree with his theological position. The deal is this...this attack against him goes way beyond the Klouda incident and the law suit...Ben Coles Blog is nothing more than a "National Inquirer" type rag that has very little to offer anyone in the ways of Christian virtues. It is an obvious personal vendetta and so many folks know this. What credibility Ben had in Greensboro...and it was already eroding then...is now quickly washing away. The same can be said for Wade and his duplicity. I don't care if they read this, I am not intimidated by either of them or the cronies that follow them and seem to parrot everything they say. God help us to take a sand, to say enough is enough, that out SBC institutions are Trustee led, Convention accountable entities and are not to be governed by the gossip mongers and bitter ,moderate leaning bloggers and secular courts of our lands. They have every right to disagree, work within the system and go to convention and seek what they feel is justice, whatever that may be, however at the end of the day perhaps they will need to seek someplace elsewhere that they can be happy and serve the Lord. As a pastor they simply remind me of disgruntled church members who like to stir the pot and cause as much trouble as they can...sometimes its just best that there be a parting of ways. I know at Truett they would have no problem with this issue (Klouda) and the CBF would love to welcome these fine, free thinking, cooperating Baptist folks.

JRM

selahV said...

Debbie: What would you have Dr. Patterson say? I read something the other day that takes issue with silence not being admirable:
"The tongue only came to its right place within the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ, because He never spoke from His right to Himself. He Who was the Wisdom of God Incarnate, said, "the words that I speak unto you, I speak not of Myself," i.e. from the disposition of my right to Myself, but from My relationship to My Father.
We are either too hasty or too slow; either we won't speak at all, or we speak too much, or we speak in the wrong mood. The thing that makes us speak is the lust to vindicate ourselves." Oswald Chambers

Do not you think it possible that Dr. Patterson is silent because he sees no reason to speak? One thing I do know about Dr. Patterson from his silence, is that he is not criticizing, condemning, nor accusing Dr. Klouda of anything. Nor is he taking action against any of the hundreds of defaming and libellous words being written about him in the blogosphere.

To me (and maybe I stand alone), his silence speaks volumes. And those volumes speak well of him and his character. Just my perception of things as I sit on the sidelines outside the doors of private discussions and in the grandstands of public addresses. selahV

Matt Brady said...

Can remaining silent in the face of attack be the Christlike thing to do?

"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" Isaiah 53:7

Unfortunately, there are some who will go pubic with their grievances even to the secular press and secular courts.

Debbie said...

SelahV and Jack others: With the lawsuit, he can't say anything, but he could have apologized and given Dr. Klouda her job back. That is all he could have said. Now however it's too late. In my opinion it's not something I admire. And I certainly wouldn't compare it to the Psalms.

Debbie said...

I do agree with you on one thing Selah. His silence did and does speak volumes.

Jack Maddox said...

Debbie

I have a question for you. Do you know the man? Why would he give her job back when he has stated clearly through his actions that he feel there is a theological prohibition to her teaching in the capacity that would have involved tenure? You may not agree with his position, but you are not the President of the SWBTS. I do not agree with Wade on much of his stand, but I would never attack him the way you people have attacked this man. I am certainly disagree with Ben and his tactics...but I would never, and I mean NEVER dedicate a blog to dragging out the so called issues of his supposedly sordid character...such as Ben has done. So neither will Paige respond. it simply is not what a man of integrity does. But one more question for you...if he did respond, what would you have him to say?

JRM

Jack Maddox said...

By sordid character. I am not talking about Ben...I am talking about what he implies about PP. As far as I know, except for attacking people on blogs and basically plotting their downfall behind their backs, Ben's character is excellent!

JRM

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

If Dr. Patterson's silence speaks volumes to you, please tell us, what is it telling you?

The Klouda issue is not the only thing Dr. Patterson is silent on. Dr. Patterson has his own subject heading at Ben's blog, and we all know those posts are not meant to flatter Ben's former mentor.

Your own pastor's blog has also had some posts which start with short assurances of love, admiration, and respect for Dr. Patterson right before launching into long posts lambasting him.

Wade's posts are kind of like saying, "We really love and agree with Paige Patterson and the principles of the Conservative Resurgence, we just really hate everything they ever stood for."

I started to say that Ben and Wade are not suing Dr. Patterson, and yet he is silent about their attacks as well. But, when I think of Ben's education and pursuit of a law career, and Wade's propensity to threaten lawsuits, I guess maybe your right. Law suits may have something to do with Dr. Patterson's silence, but in my opinion it is more a reflection of admirable character in Dr. Patterson than an often less than admirable U.S. legal system that has produced this silence.

Tim Rogers said...

Brother Matt,

With Brother Bart on a mission team I will direct my comments to you. I am sure seeing that you married sisters, according to some, you are in lock step agreement with everything.:>)

Has anyone noticed that calling on the secular courts to answer this question we are placing religious liberty into the hands of the secular government? We are asking the secular court system to distinguish if as a religious entity, we have the authority to determine if we can interpret Scripture. Take notice of the link to Wikipedia.

Blessings,
Tim

Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie said...

Hey guys,
Your comments and responses in defense of PP and pointing out the garbage and double standard of others are right on. A retired M in our church asked me this morning when would the blog world grow up? I asked for a more detailed explanation and the response was priceless: "when will people who say they love and respect and stand for the Word of God stop butchering it with their ungodly actions?"

Great question. The lawsuit is not making the people in the pew and some who have been in the trenches happy at all - THANK GOD!

Matt Brady said...

Tim,

I am honored, but I am in a different league than my PHD brother-in-law. I am, however, in much agreement with Bart, but we both held those views long before we were ever related to each other.

To answer your question from my perspective, I think they filed this case in federal court rather than pushing the EEOC case so that they could claim that the court will only rule on punitive damages for Dr. Klouda and not the employment policies of the seminaries. HOWEVER, if employees can file for huge settlements every time they disagree with the employment policies, then the courts are indeed affecting the employment policies of all of our entities, and that, as you have pointed out is a huge mistake. If only we could learn from Hyrcanus :-)

Matt Brady said...

Tim Guthrie,

I think the duplicity is becoming more obvious to people all the time.

The more this group tries to explain away Scripture in their relentless pursuit of Dr. Patterson, the more they are digging their own political grave amongst Baptists who cherish God's Word.

Jack Maddox said...

Tim

you and your m friend are dead on! I have said several times that the so called original issues that stirred all this up, i.e. baptism policies with the IMB BOT...ppl issues etc., are no longer the focus. This is about character assassination and waging a war of personnel vendetta against PP and others who support him. There is far more behind this and the truth will come to light. It is a matter of spiritual common sense. Ben Cole...who is the pseudo intellectual darling of the blog assassins has posted a video on his blog that is satirically attempting to represent PP as a Bloated, big mouth southern politician...in the video there is cursing and the "GD" is used. Folks...I don't know about you but I do not support or promote anything that 'damms' the precious Lord that dies for my sins. The fruit is obvious beloved and is son to be plucked!

JRM

Jack Maddox said...

woops

soon to be plucked

jrm

Matt Brady said...

Jack,

I hope others are seeing this as clearly as you are.


Tim Rogers,

Speaking of that secular court system, When Wade was busy telling us how narrow minded we are for being against the consumption of alcoholic beverages, he did tell us that some of the friends he golfs with each Friday often kick back a few beers in the club house between rounds of golf. Wade claims that he never talks to Gary about the case while they play golf. He just introduced Gary to Dr. Klouda.

I don't know Gary Richardson, nor do I know if he is one of the drinking buddies, but I would hate to think that Wade has introduced a beer drinking trial lawyer as the answer to help settle the disagreement at Southwestern.

I can't help but think that a ninety million dollar endowment and/or the revenues from what Ben Cole tells us are newly signed rights to drill for natural gas under the Southwestern Campus are not clearly in the sights of anyone who makes their living as a trial lawyer.

I wonder what size house Gary Richardson lives in. Maybe Ben Cole could do some checking on that for us. :-)

Matt Brady said...

By the way, that link about the beer drinking golf partners can be found here


“I have never tasted beer. But I play golf every Friday with some wonderful men from my church that enjoy a glass of beer after the round.”

It may be true that Wade has never tasted beer, but he has tried other alcholic beverages. See the same link above.

This is the same post in which Wade argues that drinking alcohol can be a wonderful aid to evangelism. God help us!

Debbie said...

Tim G: That is one retired M and whoever else you speak to which does not qualify as many or all SB's. It would not matter however. Paige Patterson was wrong, very wrong. If helping someone who suffered injustice is "needing to grow up", then count me in that crowd. May I never grow up then.

Debbie said...

Matt: You seem to be doing what you just finished castigating others for. My, my how the rules change.

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

My apologies, but I don't get it. How am I changing rules?

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

It's been a great Lord's Day, but I'm off to bed. If you will be so kind as to point out the rule changes, I'll check back in the morning and make any necessary apologies.

Debbie said...

Matt: *sigh

selahV said...

Les Puryear has a blessing for all to read when you awake tomorrow morning. And I have some sweet pictures for you to view if you'd like to take a peek. Blessings to all... selahV

Matt Brady said...

Debbie,

Hoorah! I have managed to earn one of the famous Debbie sighs. Thanks for finding me worthy :-)

Matt Brady said...

Selahv,

I read Art's blog last night. There are some good words there. I hope everyone else had a great Lord's day as well.

The pictures and stories on your blog are sweet. I have a little girl about Haylee Jae's age. When do we get to see pictures of that brand new great grandbaby?

Matt Brady said...

Selahv,

I should have said that I read Les' blog and the article he linked to at Art's blog.

selahV said...

Matt: As soon as I get some. My granddaughter lives in Alaska. She just got home from the hospital yesterday and has been rather busy getting settled into the routine of nursing and diapering. LOL. I would suspect she will have some photos up today and when she does, you can bet I'll have them on my blog asap.

God is so good to me. I'm so glad I had children. They have gifted me with 7 grandchildren and one great for all my grey hairs.

It's Monday. Wow! Another rainy day to rejoice in! selahV

dwm III said...

Bro. Robin,

Thanks, I thought no one had heard me.

Jack Maddox,

As to Ben's character. I can personally say that he challenged me to know the scriptures better when we roomed together for a semester. He also was gracious to me and my friend in giving us some comforts that others did not have. And, he saved us from living in Johnston dorm, which if anyone has lived there they would say we were doubly blessed.

I also know, though not as well as others, how God has worked in his life.

By no means am I defending his actions, and by no means do I know him as well as others. And, by no means have my actions in the blogsophere been correct towards him.

Just thought I'd say that about Ben.

I do think PP is admirable for not saying anything, even before this whole lawsuit.

dwmiii

Jack Maddox said...

dwm iii

You know bro....we have to be careful not to vilify don't we. I have read some posts on Ben's blog that were brilliant and edifying. There is no doubt that he is one of the brightest and intelligent minds in the SBC. Paige Patterson has said as much about him in recent days as was conveyed to me by one who was discussing this issue with Paige. If I were to get into a war of words with Ben he would disembowel before I could even draw my sword. However, this only compounds the mystery which is Ben Cole in my opinion. Hey Ben...if your reading this, lets do lunch..."On the Border" on I35 N...my treat!

JRM

Jack Maddox said...

btw

Ben and I share a common upbringing...he does not know this but sadly it is true.

JRM

Jim Champion said...

Matt I guess you are correct, Wade should not associate with people that drink....seems to me the same thing was said about Jesus.

Do you have any men in your church who are in business, do you think they have ever been to a dinner that incuded drinking - not thier own, but other people of legal age. Would you have them walk away - what kind of attitue would that display? Oh by the way, the woman that Wade witnessed to came to Christ. We will never know if she would have if Wade had condemed her, but the Lord seemed to use Wade in that situation. I would submit that Wade let the Holy Spirit lead him in that situation.

volfan007 said...

jim,

are you saying that drinking wine brought her to salvation?

i guess we all need to go out to the local bar or to the local hang out and drink a six pack with the good ole boys? maybe this will lead them to Jesus?


now, if you are saying to go and be with them without drinking and without condemning them, to drink a pepsi while they drink thier beer...then, i'm with you. but, the drinking with them is not the way.

david

Jim Champion said...

When I take clients out and they drink alcohlic beverages I drink water or diet coke. I then become the designated driver - everyone is fine with that. Wade answered many questions regarding the post in question, if I recall he said many times that because he had a glass of wine did not cause the lady to trust Christ, but it opened the door for her to be open to it. He has also said ( as I recall) that as long as he is a trustee of a SWBTS institution, he will not partake. I believe that Wade followed the leading of the Holy Spirit and I rejoice that a family came to trust in Christ.

The fact that some of Wade's golf buddies enjoy a cold beer following a round concerns me not a bit, in fact what I would hate is that nonchristians (or Christians who do not share my conviction on alcohol) that I associate with would feel condemnation from me if they had a drink in front of me. The Scripture is plain that Jesus met people where they are, I hope that I do the same.

I think that Matt takes his complaint a bit far

By the way, does anyone else take a least two tires to type in thier name, password and word verification on this blog? Guess it wants me to make sure I really want to leave a comment :)

sbc pastor said...

Matt,

I think that your comments concerning alcoholic beverages are right on. Truly, you are a man willing to stand on the Word of God even when others attempt to glamorize, encourage, justify, or even champion the cause of consuming alcoholic drinks. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

Jim Champion said...

Jeremy

I guess that you would have been right there with the phairisees when they derided Jesus for hanging out with drunkards and sinners - good to know that Jesus would have been a moderate in your book:) Gotta love ya though - you are consistent!

sbc pastor said...

Jim,

Actually, Jesus was neither a drunkard nor a sinner. Are you suggesting otherwise, friend??? God bless!!!

In Christ,
Jeremy