Allow me to direct you to some of the better reading in preparation for Louisville:
Dr. Jerry Vines's most recent blog post on the incessant attacks against the 1950s is statesmanlike and poignant. I think it important that we not indulge younger believers in the conceit that their generation is essentially different from all who have preceded them.
Will Hall's four-part series presenting another view of our SBC statistics is required reading. See his posts here, here, here, and here. Apparently the Southern Baptist Convention is large enough to have more than one person in the denomination who can analyze statistics.
Nathan Finn's series on the Great Commission Resurgence over at Between the Times, although it seems to offer some sort of a veiled endorsement of more incendiary blogging on the subject, has so far largely been an enthusiastic selling of the GCR in a tone more respectful of at least some of those who disagree. The starting post is here.
The series has not yet reached any of the areas of the document that would pose any real difference of opinion between Dr. Finn and myself, but I have every reason to expect that I'll still be recommending the series at the end of the week. So far it has occasioned friendly conversation between the two of us.
Bart, I really liked Dr. Vines' post. One of the things he mentioned is that alot of the stuff done in the fities was "timeless". And it was. Today we do some of the same things but call it AWANA's and WOW. I'm just grateful we're still teaching children to memorize verses and learn the books of the Bible...and the importance of the Bible.
ReplyDeleteOur pastor just finished up a series of Sunday sermons on Baptist Beliefs. I think all churches ought to have a series of sermons on that subject. Yep, take it right out of the two BF&M's. :) selahV
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ReplyDeleteBart,
ReplyDeleteAre you going to allow your name to be presented as a trustee for SWBTS?
Rick Garner
Rick
ReplyDeleteWhy the question?
Remember: during the upcoming SBC annual meeting, vote "Great Commandment Emergence" (not "Great Commission Resurgence") . . . "Great Commandment Emergence" . . .
ReplyDeleteThe Great Commandment will take care of itself when the Great Commandment becomes a reality (produced by the Holy Spirit) in the lives of Southern Baptists. Not until; not unless; cf. history.
David Troublefield
Wichita Falls, TX
Robin, Why the question of the question.
ReplyDeleteIs this a slam against Ed S.?
ReplyDeleteSo many questions????????
ReplyDeleteYOu guys got a good laugh out of me tonight! Thank you!
Tim, My original post to Robin went something like this:
ReplyDeleteWhy the question of the question when it something pertain to you, but at last I would be doing the same thing you were doing--Asking a question of the question that didn't pertain to me.
Any questions?
Can everyone say a pray for the Hogs to beat Cavs in the CWS tonight?
David -
ReplyDeleteI think Bart is probably like Miles Seaborn, progenator of the SBTC: he likes to fight because it gives him a stage. As long as there are hairs to split, Bart will be there.
Chris C.
Chris:
ReplyDeleteI guess it could be said that I desire for the hair to be split even finer--and I'm afraid the SBC messengers will miss it/be led in such a way that they miss it.
To me, as I understand the Bible, for evangelism efforts to continue among us in ways they have not in the past, it isn't an emphasis on the Great Commission which is most needed; instead, it's an emphasis on the Holy Spirit producing of us Great Commandment Christians. Again, when the Great Commandment has become a reality in the lives of Christians, then the Great Commission essentially will take care of itself--how could it not (the "love" part of Matthew 22:37-40, a product of the Holy Spirit in yielded believers' lives according to Galatians 5:22-23; agape/love = "to pursue, always and unconditionally, despite all costs to myself, the total wellbeing of another simply for the prize that one has become to me")?
"The SBC: Great Commandment Christians Becoming Great Commission Churches."
David
. . . So, "Great Commandment Emergence," not "Great Commission Resurgence."
ReplyDeletePass it on.
David
David -
ReplyDelete"The SBC: Great Commandment Christians Becoming Great Commission Churches." That is a Great Idea.
Only one problem: the SBC and SBTC has to do a LOT of fence mending to demonstrate the Great Commandment. The years 1998-2000 when the SBTC came into existance were years of Baptist trash talking. The SBTC folks never ceased to denigrade the BGCT instead of working through the convention processes. I heard from someone who was at the reconciliation committee meeting (Clyde Glaezner of Ft. Worth) that the formation of the SBTC was already a foregone conclusion even before sny reconciliation was attempted. The BGCT made every concession to meet the concerns of the break-away folks, the BGCT were told, "no matter what you do, the ship has already sailed [on the SBTC folks leaving]. My guess is it was a Golden parachute for Miles Seaborn who was being forced out of Birchman at the time.
Until the pastors of Texas (BGCT and SBTC), and those in other states like Virginia and Missouri, own up to unChristian behavior, any Great Commandment movement would be hollow. There needs to be repentance for much hatred for supposed "brothers."
Chris C
Chris:
ReplyDeleteGood to hear back from you.
You're right: any "Great Commandment Emergence" which truly is a work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers yielded to Him for increased Christ-likeness will result in repentance. It also will result in forgiveness granted.
I was a trustee on the executive board of the Missouri Baptist Convention when the MBC split began in 2001. The Fundamentalists in that state convention demonstrated all the mean-spiritedness that Fundamentalists everywhere are famous for--and they blamed their actions on a purifying of the convention theologically. It all was hogwash, and it still is. My family moved from Texas to Missouri when "the split was on" in the BGCT--and that split was no less sinful or unnecessary. I really think there is little that anyone can tell me at this point about Baptist convention politics. And I still believe what I typed above (Great Commandment Emergence before Great Commission Resurgence).
You're correct about what you've said. But a true emergence of Great Commandment Christians will be percisely what you indicated, too. Otherwise, to what "good news" would unbelievers be attracted?--to a "good news" which really affects no change at all in the hearts and lives of people who profess to believe it?
Hang in there, brother!
David
P.S. I now am "Baptist Faith & Message Any Year's Version" and can cooperate for missions and evangelism with anyone who will cooperate with me. That means lots of SBTC folks won't (the little-minded ones); and, honestly, there are some BGCT folks I don't want to work with (equally little-minded ones)--possibly including some who work as paid staff members of the convention (the hypocritical ones who manage their work--supposedly done on behalf of BGCT supporters--poorly). But, despite the sheer stupidity I've seen fellow Baptists do/be over the past 10-20 years, I'm willing to cooperate with folks for the right things if they'll cooperate with me.
David -
ReplyDeleteI think as long as people think that they are the protectors of God, they will isolate and marginalize everyone who does not agree with them in lock-step conformity. That's the irony of what you term "fundamentalism": they never reach a point of conformity so they never stop isolating themselves. Wade Burleson's "big tent" vision may not be perfect, but at least it allows us to cooperate on the basis of widely shared beliefs / interpretations, and yet be individuals on the basis of personal conviction about issues such as women in ministry (a church issue), or alcohol use (a persoanal issue), or private prayer languages (private spiritual issues).
BTW - let no one throw homosexuality in the mix. I have not heard anyone endorse Broadway's problem; they just aren't moving very fast to find an associational or convention answer.
Chris C.
Chris -
ReplyDeleteGood observations. BUT! There were problems within the BGCT that had to do with personalities, too. I believe that all the arguments got way out of hand on both sides and that there were way too many personalities in play. People in the BGCT were just as childish as those in the SBTC camp.
The sad part is, none of these Christian brothers is stepping forard first to admit wrong.
On Broadway, there are plenty of SBTC churches in the Tarrant Baptist Association who have not acted to remove Broadway either. Bart only wants to find blame in the BGCT. I think (not sure about this one) that the BGCT would remove Broadway if the TBA had already done so. These things seem like they need to start local and go national, not vice-versa.
If Bart were consistant, he would move that the TBA churches and BGCT be removed from fellowship for failure to act locally.
Now that will stir the pot!
Jake Starr
Essentially, the BGCT has been removed from the SBC--in the sense that few if any individuals affilitating with the BGCT ever find themselves nominated to serve in SBC leadership roles (I know: the SBC is a really big convention with lots of qualified folk who can serve, but the BGCT is a really big state convention sharing really big resources with the SBC--and the more-favored SBTC forwards on so much of its CP dollars to the SBC that the SBTC is rendered fairly ineffective in ministering to Texas). Heard any news about the SBC declining to receive CP dollars via the BGCT? Me either; more politics?
ReplyDeleteDuring its long history, the Baptist convention in Texas has split several times; when it did, it never did so for reasons which were godly--and when it came back together years later, the reunions' reasons weren't necessarily godly either. The same on the national level.
The Lord Jesus paid an infinitely high price for all of us who follow Him to be called "brother" or "sister" in Him (in the fussy SBC, we often seem very happy, though, thinking of each other as distant relatives--in the case of the BGCT's CP dollars: as a rich uncle, it would seem). It's my opinion that the Lord will have us treat each other as the brothers and sisters He died and rose again to make us in Himself--one way or another. Right now, considering the SBC's downward sliding stats, it appears that way is a punitive one. Hopefully, the attention of all of us will be caught and our hearts corrected before long--and before it's too late to be considered relevant, or to offer a relevant message, by those we otherwise hope to reach for Christ.
Let it start here, and now.
David
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBack to the point of the post, Dr. Vines has put up another relevant post on his blog that is quite insighful.
ReplyDeleteYoung Leaders and Their Beards
Have you read the funny blog at Lumpkins place? He does the very thing that he accuses Tim of doing/being? He implies that the Founders are conspiring?
ReplyDeleteYou all are making too much of Tim's post. I read it, and didn't see anything that you all read INTO it.
The point of Bart's original posting was to point readers here to a few others' postings about a few issues; he added a little commentary. A short posting by Bart overall. The rest of us, so far, have added commentary to the commentary. If there's another "point" to Bart's posting, I don't see it.
ReplyDeleteRick,
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely! Do you know of any reason why I shouldn't?
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI do not think that Will Hall is trying to slam Ed Stetzer. I think he's just trying to present data heretofore unpresented. Very relevant data. Hall's analysis takes things a different direction than Stetzer's, but his articles are well documented and give us some hard facts to consider in our analysis.
Of course, as has been said before, facts don't convince everyone.
Chris C,
ReplyDeleteHow long since we had lunch?
Jake Starr,
ReplyDeleteIn my prior post on this subject, I DID mention the Tarrant Baptist Association.
I would move neither for the expulsion of the entire TBA nor for the expulsion of the entire BGCT. We are a non-connectional fellowship, so local associations and state conventions are not members of the SBC to be excluded to begin with (in theory, at least).
I much prefer that these things be handled locally.
Back to VBS. I was unable to comment yesterday, for I spent the ENTIRE DAY (PTL) speaking with VBS participants about their relationships with the Lord. I anticipate the same schedule today. My apologies.
ReplyDeleteBart, I appreciate different viewpoints about our convention unlike others who want us to all march in order.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteCare to name names and cite examples?
To quote Robin: Why ask that question? :)
ReplyDeleteHint: He lives east of the Mississippi.
What do you expect from someone who grew up in Leachville, Ar and Luxora Ar?
I expect people from Leachville to get their news from the Town Crier and not from Baptist Press.
ReplyDelete;-)
Bart,
ReplyDeleteI will be glad to name names.
I believe the Father, The Son and The Spirit would want us to march in the same order.
Other than the Trinity, I can think of no other/others of whom I could say want us to "march in order."
In addition, to that particular certainty, I do believe the Apostle Paul was inspired to say something related to such a desire. He said:
"Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind."
Now, I would think that since Honda had not yet built the Accord he was not speaking of going for a drive to Louisville together. So I think he was in reference to us seeking to "march in order."
He also seems to have desired two women named Euodia and Syntyche; that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
He even encouraged at least one fellow laborer to help the two ladies to "march in order."
I also think Jesus prayed for us to be in unity. Come to think of it He also said for us to obey and teach all He had commanded us. And that if we loved Him we would keep His commandments.
I am sure that if we worked on it we could come to an understanding that for all men to simply do and believe what they believed to be right in their own eyes is not what God desires.
cb
I had forgotten about that paper. My picture was on the front page at one time---not a most wanted either. ;)
ReplyDeleteMy dad was the pastor at SBC for about 3.5 years.
I made the cover because someone had posioned my dog. I always suspected it was someone from the BI movement...just the way they work. :)
ReplyDeleteFor those who don't get it---its a joke---about BI---not about my dog.
I live east of the MS river. Jeff, were you talking about me?
ReplyDeleteDavid
David, I'll tell you tomorrow. :)
ReplyDeleteBart,
ReplyDeleteYes, I know of one that should give you pause in your consideration; http://praisegodbarebones.blogspot.com/2009/05/international-mission-board-no-longer.html
Rick Garner
Rick, I guess you'll have to connect the dots for me as to your point.
ReplyDeleteDave, I started to tell you Today, but that would add another page for you to judge.
ReplyDeleteBart, Don't employed the Peter Lumpkins argument he uses when he has been backed into a corner. Your above that lame excuse. :)
ReplyDeleteBart -
ReplyDeleteMy point is, why not berate the SBTC churches in the TBA for not doing something about Broadway? Why place the blame at the BGCT when the TBA has, to my knowledge, done nothing?
Jake Starr
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I like Peter.
Second, there are 50 things that Rick Garner might not have liked about that post. I find it a poor use of my time to try to reply to all 50, guessing which might be what he really wants to discuss, when it really might be a 51st thing that I haven't considered. If he'll quit beating around the bush and find his voice, I'll be more than happy to have the conversation.
Third, thanks for stopping by.
Jake,
ReplyDeleteThe subject not having arisen on this post at all, I can only presume that you are speaking about the last time that I mentioned the Broadway Baptist Church matter. With regard to that post, I note:
1. I mentioned the BGCT twice in passing.
2. I mentioned the TBA right alongside the BGCT in one of those references.
3. I spend the VAST PREPONDERANCE of the post discussing the SBC and the Executive Committee.
Could it be that "berating" is not what I actually did in my writing, but is instead what you expected me to write?
Jake, You are right on its a double standard in Texas, but things there are always bigger.
ReplyDeleteBart, I'm glad you like Peter that puts you in a healthy minority. :)
I think anyone who reads your blog and his blog---would say that you have a more Christian tone in your disagreements.
This is why I enjoy reading your blog even when I disagree with you.
Perhaps one day if you are ever back in Arkansas you could stop by Searcy and buy me lunch. :)
Bart -
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstand. I think a young fella like you has the voice to berate, and you should. You should just be careful not to discriminate and spread the criticism to all parties equally. The SBTC churches deserve as much or more criticism for not taking the high moral ground if they are going to claim to be the last bastions of godliness in Texas.
Jake
Bart,
ReplyDeleteBecause you never respond to my smart-mouth comments; when I see you in Louisville, I am going to put hotdog mustard on your suit.
cb
We need a resolution to keep Alabama folks from coming to the convention. :)
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteI am saving the B-B-Q sauce for you.
cb
Now you found my weakness.....Am I the guest? Or Am I going to be BBQ? :)
ReplyDeleteI will not be in Louisville--staying where its cool in Arkansas....100 degrees...heat index 115 today.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteTomorrow is Fathers' Day. I am not going to be away from my family on Fathers' day if I can help it.
Some of my children will not be with me tomorrow and that cannot be helped due to their living in other places. I will miss them, but I know they will call early in the morning and I shall be glad. Four of them will be at home tomorrow along with my wife.
Therefore, I will not be traveling to Louisville until Monday morning. I have learned in my old age that some things are just too important to miss. Being at home on Fathers' Day is one of those things.
But know this Jeff; If you ever get down Birmingham way, the B-B-Q is on me.
cb
Prediction:
ReplyDelete6000 messengers will attend the SBC annual meeting and vote for the next SBC president (if that many). Few, if any, of them will be of the theologically-conservative/SBC-politically-moderate sort (such as myself; only 1900 or so of the BGCT's messengers turned out for their own annual meeting last year). Whatever is decided by those 6000 messengers (e.g., GCR) will have little impact, day-to-day, on the lives of the average Southern Baptist, because--with attendance like that--it can't; the newly-elected president will have a similar tiny impact during the next year.
David
CB, Same for me, if you ever find your way to Searcy, Ar---let me know.
ReplyDeleteDavid -
ReplyDeleteSadly, you are right. So is Jake. It is my opinion that the splits and divisions have killed off interest in the convention as it is. That's sad, I wish there could be healing and reconciliation.
I think the convention is morphing into a network whereby people vote with their participation / non-participation, support / non-support. The future of conventions will probably parallel the style of those churches who do not maintain membership rolls; you presence means you belong, and vice versa.
Ben Macklin
Vernon, Texas
Ben:
ReplyDeleteA "Great Commandment Emergence," however, changes all of that (a "Great Commission Resurgence" does not; hasn't the SBC been there, done that?). A GCE means, from the heart being transformed, getting on-mission with God--being "missional," or whatever the latest catch-word might be for not loving ourselves so much that we resist the discomfort in telling other people how to go to Heaven instead of letting them go to Hell. Seriously on-mission believers will find each other and cooperate together to spread the good news about Jesus further; we'll even need bigger meetings for planning/praying over such relevant/relational efforts--not for hearing about it.
But, it has to start in the heart. The Holy Spirit is the only One who can do that work there.
The rest of it, I'm not interested in anymore--and I don't understand why anyone would travel hundreds of miles and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for it.
Anon -
ReplyDeleteI agree with the sentiment and the theological correctness of your statements. However, with the rank and file Southern Baptist church is ALL has to do with perception and feeling. I really do mean that. What usually rules inthe average church business meeting is a sort of "group-think" that is led by one or two persuasive voices.
The Southern Baptist Churches I know will have to get swept up in a movement that cannot be voted on in the convention ro even popularized by a program. The GCE you spoke of truly has to be a work of Holy God, and I do not believe He will bless us until we act in love and reconcile.
What blocks reconciliation is not an issue like homosexuality or women in ministry, but the vicious words that have been spoken and remembered over the past 2.5 decades. There needs to be a HUGE dose of humility on the part of Southern Baptists towards one another. I don't see it from leadership, and I don't see it from the GCR initiative either.
Ben Macklin
Vernon
Anon
ReplyDeleteP.S.
I think the issues that the GCR addresses are valuable points to take to heart. BUT I think David hit it on the head with his analysis of the practical outcomes. The passion of the GCR needs to be put toward healing ALL divisions within the rift between conservatives and conservatives within the convention.
Ben
Just now reading this article about the preaching done at today's SBC Pastors Conference in Louisville: http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9706&Itemid=53.
ReplyDeleteIt cannot possibly be that any speaker there (with the possible exception of Ed Stetzer) meant that the forgiveness which MUST be extended and the love which MUST be shown (for the SBC's witness to become one credible again) is by the present leadership of the SBC and that of years 1979-2008 to all of those now overlooked/ignored/castigated because they are denomino-politically moderate while theologically-conservative (i.e., not enough for them to be more theologically-conservative than Grandma's bloomers; must also be in the same political circle--else considered with suspicion and/or cast out). Those folks are: BGCT, BGCM, and others.
When we see that happening, though, THEN we'll all know the pastors present today: heard the message, applied the message personally, and took the message home with them to give to members of their churches. Members of the cast out churches weren't there today. And then the good news will look much more like the good news it truly is!
Anyone else have a differing view--that he can support??
David
From www.kerussocharis.blogspot.com this morning, as a review of activities yesterday at the annual SBC meeting: ". . . The Great Commission Resurgence is the hot topic, and by Thursday it will be discussed even more across the Southern Baptist Convention . . ."
ReplyDeleteMy prediction: By Thursday, no it won't--if "even more" means "considerably more." The GCR will make the headlines on Baptist press news sites, which the average Baptist doesn't read; it will be discussed somewhat more among the relatively few congregations representing the SBC at this year's annual meeting (probably messengers from not 500 out of 45,000 churches present?); GCR resolutions/approvals will not be discussed and will have zero affect in almost all SBC churches after this week. There is no effective means for making it happen--and unless it is now meant that the GCR is to be based solidly upon a GCE, any mention of the GCR even among those present in Louisville this week won't be sustained till the end of 2009 (Morris Chapman doesn't even support the movement as it's presently presented; Johnny Hunt has had the same affect convention-wide as all of his predecessors: zero).
Which doesn't mean a Great Commission Resurgence isn't needed--it is, for the sake of souls worldwide; but, again, until a "Great Commandment Emergence" takes place first in the hearts and through the hands/feet/mouths of born-again Southern Baptists, a GCR isn't really going anywhere.
David