Sunday, November 2, 2008

If Barack Hussein Obama Wins

In my last post I tried to address some of the things that you might not think about at first consideration of the prospect of a McCain victory. Of course, it goes unstated that a McCain victory would be far and away the better of the two choices. Among things that I didn't mention, a McCain election would not mean that the campaign to save the lives of teeming masses of innocent children every day wouldn't be set back a couple of decades. That, in and of itself, is worth the price of admission. And then there's the specter of facing the hostility of a President who regards our faith as something to which desperate people stubbornly and foolishly cling. But, a shocking come-from-behind McCain victory would also prompt (I predict) the reactions delineated in my last post.

Now, on the other hand, although I would go to great lengths if I thought that I could prevent Obama's election (and I'll do what I can in a polling place on Tuesday morning!), I think there are a few things that we believers ought to remind ourselves when we face a more hostile environment to people of faith on Wednesday morning:

  • FIrst and foremost, I think we have to acknowledge something of the hand of God in the events that have swept Obama into the White House. I mean, who foresaw this economic cataclysm coming at just the right timing to have maximum impact upon the election? And which political party could have made it happen on cue if they had wanted to do so? Nobody.

    I know…I know…God didn't make people take out crazy subprime interest-only ARMs. We got ourselves into this mess. But I'm talking about the precise timing and ferocity of the meltdown. McCain was surging on a Palin-induced rally and this economic mess came just in time to nip that in the bud. It happened long after Republicans had the opportunity to pick a more economically savvy candidate, and long after John McCain had any opportunity to get his bearings and sort out his talking points. Yet it happened long enough before early voting for the bleak reality to sink deeply into the consciousness of so many American voters.

    If something like that had emerged to catapult McCain to victory, we would have declared it—without much hesitation—to be the hand of God. Well, why must it be something else if it puts Obama into office?

    Because Obama is a bad and godless liberal? Remember, this is the same God who brought bad and godless Assyria down upon Israel. He brought Nebuchadnezzar upon Judah and the Bible explicitly says that God gave into Nebuchadnezzar's hands the sacred vessels of the temple to put into the treasury of a pagan idol (Daniel 1:2). I don't believe that Barack Obama is a whit closer to God than Nebuchadnezzar was, but I recommend that we all be VERY careful about thinking that we know what God would do or what God wouldn't do.

    The United States of America may very well deserve precisely Barack Hussein Obama. This may be the election where God lets us have just that.

    And if the result is socialism (and the inevitably ensuing collapse of our economy and poverty for everyone), then socialism will not defeat the church. Just ask my friends in Cub@. And even in that, we can give thanks. For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom, and a little poverty just might facilitate a lot of revival.

    If the result is persecution of the church and (a generation or so down the road) the imprisonment of those who will preach the whole Bible, then we can rejoice. For the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church, and just such a thing might do us more good than any jingoistic convention program could ever do in bringing back purity and vitality to the church (and we won't even have to design a logo for it).

    So, God might have lots of good reasons to hand this election to Obama. I would still be sinning to vote for him, but God can simultaneously expect me to vote for McCain and plan for an Obama victory.

  • I will pray for Barack Obama and will show him respect as my President. I reserve the right to disagree with him, and I'm sure that I will exercise that right on many occasions, but I will not treat Obama that way that so many people have treated President Bush. A great many liberal church members (indeed, liberal churches!) have flagrantly sinned in their language and attitudes toward President Bush. They reveal, methinks, that they have a higher regard for "Never trust anyone over 30" than for "Honor the King" (1 Peter 2:17).

    Let not the same be said of us. Let us argue the issues, but if he wins, let us show President Obama biblical respect. Let us remember that, in the face of wrongful laws and oppressive treatment, Daniel and his compatriots always showed deferential respect to Nebuchadnezzar.

  • Barack Obama may not turn out to be as bad of a president as I think he will be. The events that define a presidency often happen during the presidency itself. Think for a moment how much the events of September 11 have defined the presidency of George W. Bush. When I voted for him in 2000, I had no idea that those 2001 attacks were coming. Neither did you. Neither did HE. To some degree, every President-Elect is a pig in a poke. Some of them just smell a lot worse.

    So, God is able to shape the events that will shape Barack Obama. Don't forget, "The King's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Proverbs 21:1). Perhaps we pastors ought to practice a corollary to a principle that we've prescribed for so long: If we want a better president, we should pray for the one that we get. And we should perform those prayers knowing that God is quite powerful enough either to harden Obama's heart around his wrongful ways (Exodus 9:12) or to bring him around to an entirely new way of thinking (Acts 16:22-40).

God is able to bring good things out of an Obama administration—with Obama's help or in spite of his resistance. But even if He does not, let us be faithful and obedient, remembering that, as it pertains to our true citizenship, the administration of our kingdom does not hang in the balance on Tuesday.

56 comments:

CB Scott said...

The only people who are remotely prepared to live during an Onama presidency with a positive expectation for the future are those people who are true followers of the Risen Lord Jesus for we know Who has already written the last page in America's history and it is all in His capable Hands.

May His glorious return come soon and may we be found faithfully working in His vineyard when He appears.

cb

selahV said...

Bart...amen. I for one do not tremble at this proposition. I do get a bit ill...but I have Pepto for that. In fact if anyone wants to get rich in the stock market after this election I have some stock predictions that are gonna soar.

I for one will be happy that Sarah gets to take her family home to where they are loved. And maybe she can light a fire under those folks up there in Alaska to get that pipeline built before she runs in 2012.

I just love the fact that I am a Christian. God is so blessed good to me. I've been living in what the statisticians say is poverty for years. Ha. And God has proved Himself faithful over and over.

However, this stupid economy is not what bothers me. It is the prospect of Obama's promised National Civil Security Force to be funded as well, organized as strong and given as much authority as our military that he wants to dumb-down and eliminate.

It's the mandated insurance for children and the mandated medical measures that will follow like the human papiloma (sp) vacination and abortions on demand without parental notification. And educators being mandated to teach sex-education i.e. homosexual tolerance, to our kindergarteners. Whew, I need a Pepto.

If Obama fails in his attempt to socialize (ha) America, he will weaken it to the point that about any ol' dictator who wants to can come in and take over. After all. We'll have no guns. And his National Civil Security Force will control us all just like ACORN controlled the bankers.

While we sit here contemplating the religious rights being undermined, Christians in India, China, Africa and Indonesia are being murdered, raped, burned alive and imprisoned.

Indeed we would be getting what we deserve from our Holy just God. May He show us mercy. And if He does, then I do pray we will stop bickering over stupid stuff and begin reaching the world for Jesus. If He doesn't show us mercy, then I know He will give us grace sufficient to meet the needs to bring Him glory till the race is over.

Thanks for the space. Sorry I couldn't be pithy. I'm so hubris. selahV

Big Daddy Weave said...

The Sky is Falling. The Sky is Falling.

I had a few European classmates in my Political Science courses at the University of Georgia who regularly pointed out that the differences between Republicans and Democrats are - in the real world - not that great. I went to Berkeley a month back and saw several bumper stickers which made a similar point with humorous poo-references.

Pretty sure that C.B. Scott will still have his guns next election cycle and as much as Bart wants to be like Obadiah Holmes, he'll still be Bart Barber. No persecution for you!

And SelahV, she might be living in a little less poverty thanks to Barack Obama.

When it comes to Roe v. Wade, we should always remember that John Sidney McCain probably wouldn't nominate someone in the vein of Antonin Scalia or Robert Bork in the first place. He's just not that conservative. But even if he did - a Bork or Scalia would never make it through the current Senate. I hope in the next few years that more and more folks on the left and the right will start to take conservative legal scholars like Douglas Kmeic seriously, face reality, and commit themselves to policies that pursue abortion reduction.

I voted Friday afternoon and actually cast my ballot for one Republican, a local vet running for re-election to the state house who takes great care of my Italian Greyhounds!

Ron P. said...

Bart,

I am reminded of a sermon I heard as a youth. Dr. J. Harold Smith (Radio Bible Hour) preached a revival at my church when I was a teenager (1980's). During the message, he preached about the rampant immorality in our country, and that he believed that God had been withholding his wrath because of a faithful remnant of believers and that He is slow to anger. But, if we as a nation did not repent, and turn from our wickedness, God would be true to His character and His Word and judge America. He went on to say that if we as a nation do not repent, He would either judge us or He would have to raise Sodom and Gomorrah up from the ashes and apologize.

That was some 20+ years ago. We as a nation, have completely forsaken the Lord. Our country's rampant rebellion against God, debauchery, injustice throughout, and the countless massacre of millions of unborn children, I fear, has brought the Lord to the point that He is about to bring forth His judgment and let us suffer the consequences of our nation's sinfulness.

But thanks be to the Lord Jesus Christ, that our faith is not in this nation, but in the Lord Himself.

Blessings,

Ron P.

Tim Rogers said...

Brogher B'Diddy,

Our Brother CB Scott, donned a uniform with the US Marines, and placed himself on the front line so that you would have the freedom to visit your friends at Berkley and banter about the pros and cons of Democrats and Republicans. He laid his life on the line in order for you to be free to speak your liberal gobble-d-guck on a blog.

While, he is still a big enough man to speak for himself, I will leave you with only one question. Exactly what have you done to defend his freedom to speak his beliefs?

Blessings,
Tim

Bart Barber said...

Big Daddy,

The chance of civil persecution against those who would declare homosexual sex sinful, refuse to call homosexual pastors...refuse to call female pastors, for that matter, discipline their children biblically—these things are vulnerable right now.

A pastor up North is being tried right now for spanking his son. No injuries involved, no pattern of oppressive abusiveness, and nothing other than a plain old spanking is involved here. He just might go to jail. A school in California has KINDERGARTENERS signing pledge cards not to speak critically of homosexuality, and if you don't like the way that's going, you may have very little recourse, with the state of California pressing for a declaration that parents have no right to educate their own children.

Antiproselytization laws are on the books all over liberal Europe. Even here in the Bible belt, municipalities in North Dallas regularly try to use zoning laws to make it more difficult to locate churches where they'd prefer to have taxpayers.

Will I see in my lifetime the persecution of anyone who goes to church? No. What I'll live to see is the persecution of anyone who goes to a church that tries to get other people to convert, that preaches a biblical sexual ethic, etc.

Brother, I know that you are both a liberal and an ardent supporter of religious liberty. I fully realize that a great many Republicans and conservatives do not value the same things that I value. You need to realize that a great many Democrats and liberals haven't the slightest interest in protecting religious liberty. Indeed, your liberals will probably stroll right in through the Smith door that my conservatives opened.

I know that people have been crying wolf about persecution of American Christians for decades. That very fact makes it sound silly for me to engage in the same. But you might take notice of the fact that, at the end of that story, a wolf actually DID show up. And nobody did anything to stop the wolf. They laughed at the warning cry, because they had come to associate it with silliness and "falling skies."

CB Scott said...

BDW,

You begin your argument with: "I had a few European classmates in my Political Science courses at the University of Georgia who regularly pointed out that the differences between Republicans and Democrats are - in the real world - not that great."

Now B. Diddy, I consider you to be a bright fellow in some respects and I think time will mold you away from some of the "molded" garbage you have been taught at the feet of so many liberal, godless, neo-pagan educators.

I pray for you often by name along with several other bright young guys I know who have also drank deeply from the well of Kool-Aid that continues to gush up from the sulfuric streams of hell into the classrooms of our prominent educational institutions to poison the minds and hearts of those Satan knows will be world-changers for Jesus if they ever get sober and start a good and wholesome diet on the meat of the Word.

(I am so thankful that the CR boys went to all of our six seminaries and blew up those wells of poison and scattered the "bucket brigade" that carried the poison Kool-Aid to our students to places that our money does not directly support.)

Now, back to your statement: B Diddy, Why is it that you would think a bunch of European nuts and flakes would know more about our nation than those of us who actually live here? What makes their observation of such a value that you would quote them as gospel?

That is kinda like another young friend of mine who praised a teacher who was spouting Liberation Theology as if it were anything other than the life taking social cancer that it is. That teacher was teaching from a sanitized vacuumed environment about something he had never seen or experienced firsthand.

B. Diddy, I pray you never experience the things Bart speaks of as possibilities. I really do. Because the real world
history of our planet states that when the "real bad boys" come it is guys like you who they hang first.

cb

Bill said...

Bart: You seem like a good guy and not a reactionary. I am wondering therefore, why you choose to include Obama's middle name in your post. Honestly, that smacks of fear mongering to me. Truthfully, if Sen. Obama's middle name was Chuck, would anyone be using it?

I will not vote for Obama but I fear his presidency very little. If by this time in two days he is President elect, then I will consider him the God ordained leader of this country.

I learned my lesson with Bill Clinton. During the Lewinsky debacle I became consumed with loathing for him and not only wanted him to be brought down, but brought down with maximum humiliation. He wasn't right, but neither was I.

selahV said...

BDW...nope, you're wrong. If Obama gets elected I will be on the street. the house I live in with far below the fair rental value is owned by my daughter whose husband will be bankrupt from the new tax increases on his company. Therefore, they will have to sell the house and I'll have to find a home in a slummy area. Hey...maybe I'll be able to get a job with ACORN, then. hip hip hooray! selahV

Bart Barber said...

Bill,

I think that some of the sentiments expressed in my post echo those with which you've chosen to upbraid me. I regularly use President Bush's middle initial when referring to him. Is it disrespectful to refer to a person by name?

John McCain's middle name…to tell you the truth, I don't know what it is. So I didn't use his middle name. But in general, when considering the election and inauguration of a person to office, it is normal to employ the full name on such a formal occasion. I'm betting that Nixon wasn't all that fond of "Milhous" either, but rising to such prominent position normally means that people start to employ your full name from time to time.

I think you'll find copious occasion throughout my blog where I've simply gone with first, last. And if he is elected, I will begin to refer to him as President Obama, although perhaps at times by fuller name for variety's sake.

Bill said...

Bart: Fair enough. I do know however that many are employing Sen. Obama's middle name as a way of planting some type of anti-muslim fear into people. You didn't seem the type to employ those tactics which is why I brought it up.

I saw a poll that said 25% of Texans believe Obama is a muslim. I saw a lady at a McCain rally say she was afraid of Obama because he is an Arab. I don't want Obama to win, but I don't want him to lose this way.

Bart Barber said...

Bill,

No doubt, a great many votes are cast in ignorance of some kind or another. I have seen the same polls speculating that Obama is a Muslim. Those who believe that Obama is a Muslim have been just as deceived as those who believe that Obama is a Christian in any orthodox, biblical sense. I think that Bill Maher has his candidate neatly pegged: A pragmatic atheist who plays a Christian on TV.

CB Scott said...

Bart,

Your last comment about Obama's faith background is well said and has the weight of his revealed character, nature and voting record to substantiate it.

In other words, His life testimony says he is not a biblical Christian. And since there is not other kind of Christian to be, the great evidence is he is not one.

BTW, neither is his pastor and mentor, Jeremiah Wright according to the same criteria.

cb

Big Daddy Weave said...

Tim Rogers,

I didn't question C.B. Scott's patriotism. Don't question mine. You seem upset that most North Carolinians are going to pull the lever for Obama tomorrow. Don't be bitter, Tim.

Bart,

"I fully realize that a great many Republicans and conservatives do not value the same things that I value. You need to realize that a great many Democrats and liberals haven't the slightest interest in protecting religious liberty."

I'm rather aware from my time working on behalf of religious liberty in DC that both Democrats and Republicans are both lousy on the issue. That won't change though whether Obama is in the White House or John Sidney McCain. You need to read Same-Sex Marriage and Religious Liberty: Emerging Conflicts published by the Beckett Fund (2008). Conservatives, centrists, and liberals agree that there is cause for concern - antidiscrimination laws will continue to trump religious freedom - but their concern is nothing like the scenario that you depict. McCain has never been known as someone with an interest in religious liberty causes. Don't look for any help from him. And his lower court appointees if they are in the mold of Scalia could continue to set back religious liberty.

C.B.,

Take a class or two in political science. You choose the professor. Maybe take a history course or two. From a global perspective, there is not a huge difference between the policies promoted by Republicans and Democrats here in the United States when compared with the numerous political parties of Europe. That was my point - a point that I'm certain not even a conservative political science professor would disagree with. I had enough conservative political science professors at the University of Georgia to know that...

Bart Barber said...

Sidney! I knew someone would help me out there.

kws said...

I have one prediction about the election. No matter who wins, God will still be on his throne Wednesday morning. Perhaps it is time that evangelicals redirect our energy and funds away from political activism and towards that which will bring about real change,namely evangelism.

CB Scott said...

BWD,

You avoided or failed to answer my question.

"B Diddy, Why is it that you would think a bunch of European nuts and flakes would know more about our nation than those of us who actually live here? What makes their observation of such a value that you would quote them as gospel?"

Also, B.Dittty, why would you think I have not taken classes in Political Science? I have. And from some of the same whacko types you have. I also studied theology under some real whacko types.

I got sick and threw up the Kool-Aid and I am praying you do the same.

cb

Bart Barber said...

KWS,

Considering the fundraising differences between McCain and Obama, I'd say that not that much Christian energy and resources have gone into politics THIS cycle.

Political action is not the answer. It just isn't. But our political system empowers us, and therefore makes us responsible for what we do. We are obligated to do many other things first, but we are also obligated to vote and to advocate for justice.

We must do so not because we have forgotten that God is on His throne, but because we remember it. Yes, His will is done in Heaven no matter what, but that does not prevent us from seeking it to be done just as well on Earth.

kws said...

I would submit that the reason there was less energy and money directed to political activism by Christians is that many saw the futility of it in the last election cycle. If I could find the NT calling for more political activism as a means to change the culture I could get behind it. What I do find is a call for personal and corporate holiness in the midst of a sinful culture, as well as a crytal clear call for repentance to all.

Bart Barber said...

By the way, Big Daddy, Doug Kmiec's argument boils down to this: He is confident that Obama will unflinchingly keep his promise to end the war, yet hopeful that Obama will relent from his promises of radical liberal action on abortion, homosexuality, etc. His original endorsement of Obama says as much.

The technical term for that is "wishful thinking." And even if it were true, thank God, the religious zealots of the nineteenth century were not willing to sacrifice the defense of the humanity of blacks in order to keep the nation out of a war. Neither am I prepared to do so with regard to the defense of the humanity of babies. I don't see how you can reduce abortion until you cease to think of other people as subhumans. Nor, if you could accomplish it, am I sure that it constitutes that much of an accomplishment.

Bart Barber said...

KWS,

I confess that I am guided on this point as much by the Old Testament as by the New. The New Testament does speak of the judgment of the nations, but it includes very little of instruction to rulers. The Old Testament is chock full of instruction to rulers. Whenever the polling place is open, you and I are the rulers of the United States of America.

I'm really not trying to disagree with what you are saying, so much as I'm trying to say in addition the part that you left out. The part about God still being on the throne Wednesday morning sounds like a paraphrase of the latter part of my original article. But that does not absolve us of our responsibility as citizens.

To try to state it more clearly: I do not believe that I will answer to God for the decisions and direction of our government. But I do believe that I will answer to God for how I voted and what I did to try to make a difference.

Alex said...

You would think this was the electing of an ancient Persian emperor - and indeed your analogies appear to confirm that you can hardly tell the difference.

You know you have blogged too far when you state the priceless,
'When I voted for [Bush] in 2000, I had no idea that those 2001 attacks were coming.'
Really? You don't say!

If America elects someone to the left of your politics, it doesn't mean that evil has descended - just keep remembering (or should I say, start realizing) that very few of the world's Bible believers are American, and still fewer American Republicans. You should get off the campus more...

kws said...

Bart,

My comments are not directed at you or any individual. I want you to vote your conscience, as will I. I am deeply thankful that unlike most Christians in history, I have the freedom and ability to have an impact on government. The comments come from a pastor's frustration that many of the members of the church I pastor are incredibly interested and active in this election while seemingly unmoved by the lostness all about us.

CB Scott said...

KWS,

You said: "If I could find the NT calling for more political activism as a means to change the culture I could get behind it. What I do find is a call for personal and corporate holiness in the midst of a sinful culture, as well as a crytal clear call for repentance to all."

may I ask you the following?

Is it not from a firm foundation of personal and corporate holiness that we are to speak prophetically in all arenas of our life?

Are not our Christian convictions to lead us into the polling booth as well as into the market place? Are we not to labor to keep as many avenues of life open to the sharing of the gospel as possible for as long as possible until Jesus comes?

Are we not to sacrifice whatever we have to to gives men, women, boys and girls the same freedoms to hear the gospel as who have enjoyed?

cb

bapticus hereticus said...

cb scott interpreting and redacting Bart: ... [Obama] ... is not a ... Christian. And ... neither is ... Jeremiah Wright ....


Bart agreement? CB projection?

in any event: baptist and voting Obama. probably more than just a few of us doing so.

-- bapticus hereticus

Bart Barber said...

Alex,

Seven mission trips so far this year. I get off the campus plenty, thank you very much.

Would you mind pointing me to the place where I've enshrined the Republican Party as my liege? Or is reading comprehension too much to ask. Speaking of which, did you not comprehend the point of my paragraph about September 11? What was so far-fetched about that? Or did you bother to understand it before critiquing it?

Bart Barber said...

Bapticus Hereticus,

As to your question, I agree on both points. But before you draw the wrong conclusions, allow me to say that I believe that Bill Clinton is a Christian, misguided and backslidden as he may be. Jimmy Carter, in my opinion, is deserving of your sobriquet, but C. B. made pilgrimage to Plains not too long ago and, I think, counts the former President as a fellow believer.

It is not that either of us discerns redeemed from lost by means of party affiliation. But we are willing to call a spade a spade.

Bart Barber said...

KWS,

Yea, verily.

Big Daddy Weave said...

Bart,

The premise of your argument rests on the notion that there is ONLY ONE WAY to "fight abortion" and that way is ending Roe v. Wade. I reject that notion. In our present context, "fighting abortion" through policies that promote abortion reduction is the best way to protect life.

Evangelicals like Tony Campolo and Ron Sider both disagree with Roe v. Wade. But both men came to realize that overturning Roe was not likely and consequently have turned their attention to other, more effective strategies

Most can agree on the same ends (ending abortion) but we disagree on the "means" to that end.

Overturning Roe tomorrow might keep women in your community from having an abortion. However, most American women will still be able to legally procure an abortion as a majority of states will choose to support abortion rights. That's a fact that often gets left out of abortion discussions.

Joe Blackmon said...

"The premise of your argument rests on the notion that there is ONLY ONE WAY to "fight abortion" and that way is ending Roe v. Wade. I reject that notion. In our present context, "fighting abortion" through policies that promote abortion reduction is the best way to protect life." Translation-more government handouts to people who are too ignorant to know how to control themselves. Overturning Roe v. Wade, on the other hand, would make abortion illegal without the requirement of any government handouts.

Bart Barber said...

Big Daddy,

It was in anticipation of that sentiment that I penned: "I don't see how you can reduce abortion until you cease to think of other people as subhumans. Nor, if you could accomplish it, am I sure that it constitutes that much of an accomplishment."

By that bit of prose, I meant to indicate the profound, underlying need to help people to acknowledge other people as people. In my view, this is EVEN MORE IMPORTANT than abortions not taking place. Because if people refuse to regard any other person as subhuman, it will bring about a different experience not only for those who have not yet been born, but for the infirm, the disabled, the elderly, the poor, the alien and stranger among us...you name it.

That's why the Constitution is the place to address this question. The Constitution is a document that speaks of the grand theme of who is and who is not a person deserving of basic human rights. At its birth, it bore the scar of grand hypocrisy in its refusal to acknowledge the rights of blacks. We corrected that flaw and, for the blink of an eye, we had a document that said something noble and true. Then we allowed a Politburo of jurists to alter it by fiat and proclaim yet another class of people who were not really people.

There is no room for halfway measures here. We must acknowledge human beings as people made in God's image. And when we will do so, abortion and a whole host of other symptoms of this problem will take care of themselves.

CB Scott said...

B H,

I have heard Hillary Clinton's personal testimony. I have no reason to believe she is not a believer. I believe her husband is also. I do believe they lost their way as have so many of us before. I do pray for them that they might return to the faith. I have written to them of that fact.

I have also written Al and Tipper Gore for the same reasons. I do believe with all my heart that Satan made great efforts to pull the Clintons and Gores away from their First Love during their tenures in the White House. For he knew that if the four of them had given their all to the Master during those years they might have turned the world upside down in a greater magnitude than did Paul and his buddies Thessalonica back in their day.

It is true that I meet with President Carter along with my good friend Ben Cole. It is also true I consider him to have been a terrible president and an even worse former president. But,.....

I do not doubt him to be a Believer along with his wife (who would actually have made a better president than did her husband). I do believe President Carter to be a product of poor biblical and theological preaching and teaching during his lifetime in Baptist churches as can be easily observed by the lifestyle, preaching, teaching and profession of one of his former pastors, Charles Trentham.

Can you imagine what may have happened to advance the Kingdom had
Jimmy Carter been under the ministry of a Bible believing, preaching and teaching man of God rather than a liberal?

For that matter, can you imagine what the future could hold for the advancement of the Kingdom of God had Barack Obama been under the ministry for the last twenty years of a true and biblical Christian pastor rather than under the false and godless ministry of a Liberation Theology spouting false prophet like Jeremiah Wright?

cb

Bart Barber said...

CB

You've helped me think of a new organization that ought to be founded:

National Write Your Congressman...About His Relationship with the Lord!

I'm proud of you for writing those letters. I wish I had thought to do it.

volfan007 said...

Barack Hussein Obama

Barack Hussein Obama

Barack Hussein Obama.

That's his name, Bill. If he's ashamed of it, then maybe he ought to go and change it.

David

Bill said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bill said...

If he's ashamed of it, then maybe he ought to go and change it.

If you don't like my questions, maybe you ought to ignore them, instead of responding with childish retorts.

I asked Bart what I thought was a fair question. He responded with a thoughtful answer and I let it drop.

CB Scott said...

Vol,

neener, neener, neener?

Nah, couldn't be. He went to Washington. Surely this Bill? is not him.

cb

Alan Cross said...

Bart,

Your comments in the original post were well thought out. I also do not support an Obama presidency, but neither do I fear the future. God is in control.

You are right: We need to pray for our president and not resort to childish name calling and vindictive. This is not the end of the world. God will be glorified as we look to Him alone.

I also agree that we do not need to treat an Obama presidency in the same way that liberals have treated a Bush presidency. Nor, do we need to treat an Obama presidency in the same way that many religious conservatives treated a Clinton presidency. The hate that came from many Christians during the Clinton years was shameful and set back the cause of Christ. I hope that we have learned something.

It is one thing to respectfully disagree and be the faithful opposition. It is quite another to oppose someone on every turn and demonize him. The truth of your position cannot be heard because of all the vile and bitterness that you are spewing if you do that.

Thanks for pointing us in a different direction. And, you are right, politics is not the answer.

Bart Barber said...

I find that issuing a little "Neener, neener, neener" from time to time helps to keep my coronary arteries clear and my blood pressure lower.

bapticus hereticus said...

obviously some of the theology espoused by Bart and CB significantly differs from mine, however, i would assume we all are pretty good at botching the things we believe in that differ (and represent our perference) and those beliefs that are similar, as well. having said that i am not one to suggest there is a limit to one's ability or God's Spirit's with said person due to the teachings of one's pastor, even where one may find agreement with said pastor. further, i may find agreement and disagreement with many that i greatly respect and those that i have little preference for, but none of these individuals do i or will i sit/be under. i am simply too baptist for that.

Obama and Wright, in my estimation, for their faith have sometimes been maligned, even if such was not done so with a mean spirit. bearing false witness is both an intentional and unintentional behavior, and I would presume each of us are more guilty of it than we are aware; yeah, even the best of us. liberation theology, much maligned, to my amazement, has a place in the Christian tradition, however it is not a perspective that tradionally priviledge people fully appreciate, but if said people had deeper insight into the manifestations of principalities and powers and the consequences of the rift between the essential and existential nature of existence, even they may come to appreciate the potential transformations faciliated by a liberation perspective.

Bart Barber said...

Alan,

THanks for stopping by. Don't forget to vote. :-)

Bart Barber said...

Baptist Hereticus, I have but two questions for you:

1. Do you hold a diploma from the e e cummings school of grammar and punctuation?

2. Do you draw heavily upon this site in the composition of your comments?

:-)

Just having a little fun, here.

CB Scott said...

BH,

Seriously, what do you really know of the effects of Liberation Theology?

It has no redeeming merit. Actually, it has less merit, truth, and human compassion than rabid Islam.

I could not find any real information as to who you really are and I base my next statement solely on what I have read of you which is not much I must confess. But thus far from what I have read I must say: You are a liberal and worse than that you are a psudeo-intellectual liberal one at that. Those are the most dangerous kind.

cb

bapticus hereticus said...

greetings, Bart. i studied a few ee cummings poems in graduate school in the context of organizational functioning, but i am not consciously aware of choosing this style of grammar due to him, however. it was an interesting experience studying literature with econ and finance majors.

thanks for the site; although i am not sure what is being said. i am aware that i can be a bit (way bit!) verbose; probably need to do a bit more editing. but, other things to do, too.

bapticus hereticus said...

BH[:] Seriously, what do you really know of the effects of Liberation Theology? It has no redeeming merit. Actually, it has less merit, truth, and human compassion than rabid Islam. I could not find any real information as to who you really are and I base my next statement solely on what I have read of you which is not much I must confess. But thus far from what I have read I must say: You are a liberal and worse than that you are a psudeo-intellectual liberal one at that. Those are the most dangerous kind. [--] cb

what does one 'say' in response to this, CB?

Bart Barber said...

BH,

The site I linked is quite fascinating. It is the Postmodern Essay Generator. The essays there have been generated entirely by a machine. Click reload and you'll get a new essay each time. It really is fascinating.

Of course, a computer cannot create Psalms or War and Peace or the Mona Lisa or "Begl├╝ckt darf nun dich, o Heimat, ich schauen"—true meaning and creativity require a human brain, and one that is being employed.

But, the computer can memorize phrases that it doesn't comprehend—often because no worthwhile meaning exists there to be comprehended—and arrange them in some sort of pattern to produce an essay of equal or superior quality to what passes occasionally for research and writing. It just pastes into the right spots such gems as "the subtextual paradigm of expression" or "semiotic theory" or "cultural precapitalist theory" or "postcultural desublimation."

Or even...."the consequences of the rift between the essential and existential nature of existence."

CB Scott said...

Nothing if you do not desire...but, allow me to go on a little bit if you will.

Your writing does give some indication of, at least, a sampling introduction to Liberation Theology.

Have you read read some of James Cone's work? Or am I just completely off here and you are a budding Che Guevara in the making?

cb

bapticus hereticus said...

greetings, Bart. i think several years ago a nonacademic designed a lecture for academics that was concept-heavy and sounded very intellectual but in essence said nothing. as i recall the lecture and he were well-received and evaluated highly. yikes.

in terms of the rift comment: it is a central idea in the thought of Tillich. i should have shared such, given that not all have a fondness for his writings. my apology.

Bill said...

I suggest that after tomorrow we all put the election behind us by supporting something I hope we can all get behind, like Operation Christmas Child. Anyone do the shoebox thing?

Bart Barber said...

BH,

Oh, I'm very aware of the origin of the phrase. Wally Christian was a HUGE Tillich fan over at BU. Knowing where it came from and thinking it profound, those are two different things.

But all I meant to suggest by bringing up the POMO generator in the first place was that your comment was verbose, a little bit of a voyage into rarified air, and probably did more to reinforce stereotypical thoughts of where Liberation Theology comes from and who it is for than to break those stereotypes. It then appears to be the fate of theology when it is orphaned by the church and given over to Marxists and academes to raise it.

Georgia Mountain Man said...

National Civil Security Force? What anonymous email did that one come from? Sir, you have been reading way too many of those "the United States as we know it is coming to an end, Obama (the black man) is going to be president. Admit it, if he were white, would you be so concerned? My grandma always said, that when the preacher started preaching and talking politics, he had quit preaching and gone to meddling. I believe that wholeheartedly. Pray for yourself, that you will stop questioning others' faith.

Bart Barber said...

Georgia Mountain Man,

I think you've confused me with SelahV on the National Civil Security Force thing. Slow down. The old carpenters say to measure twice and then cut once. Read twice and comment once might be a good guideline for us all.

Now, as to the remainder of your comment. A few years back I was writing J. C. Watts encouraging him to run for President. I'm thankful that we've reached the day when a black man can be president. How wonderful that white people have come to acknowledge that black people are people.

Now if Obama would just extend the same courtesy to the youngest and most vulnerable among us waiting to be born.

Tim G said...

Good post and comment stream Bart. We have nothing to fear as long as we are right with God!

bapticus hereticus said...

Bart: BH, Oh, I'm very aware of the origin of the phrase. Wally Christian was a HUGE Tillich fan over at BU. Knowing where it came from and thinking it profound, those are two different things.

bh: but you could not, then(?), find it in yourself to allow that the one using the phrase could possibly be using it with integrity, hence the highly suggestive language of doubt: true meaning and creativity require a human brain, and one that is being employed ... the computer ... pastes into the right spots such gems as "the subtextual paradigm of expression" ... Or even...."the consequences of the rift between the essential and existential nature of existence."

bh: the rift not being profound? perhaps we have lost the significance of and appreciation for Paul's I know but do otherwise condition. but to give you your due, existentialism does not attract a wide following, even if in my estimation it is still quite instructive in interpreting human existence. however, that you apparently don't find Tillich's thoughts on essentialism and existentialism to be of significant merit, with little doubt that others are of the same mind, credibly so, does not justify, in this instance, casting doubt on my understanding of his concepts.

Bart: But all I meant to suggest by bringing up the POMO generator in the first place was that your comment was verbose, a little bit of a voyage into rarified air, and probably did more to reinforce stereotypical thoughts of where Liberation Theology comes from and who it is for than to break those stereotypes. It then appears to be the fate of theology when it is orphaned by the church and given over to Marxists and academes to raise it.

bh: liberation theology is seldom about rarified air, where it so, it might find more of a following among those that are more doctrinally oriented. more formally, theology of liberation concerns first the experience of the oppressed and how such is to be, secondly, understood theologically (not unlike the correlational method preferred by Tillich, but much less philosophically oriented), which then gives rise to practical responses (e.g., Freire); that is, it begins with anthropology and moves to Christology before it justifies practical alternatives, just the opposite of orthodox theology, which works first from Christology before moving to anthropology. that, however, an approach or perspective is less plausible because it has been orphaned by the people may be due to its irrelevance and inability to be generative, but it does not follow that such must be the case given that our religious heritage reveals over and over that we have often abandoned our first love due to our proneness to wander (i.e., the Pauline I know but do otherwise condition). that there are academics or otherwise calling us to previous understandings that restore hope and provide direction, etc. is to be celebrated not criticized.

moreover, i am not a Marxist, but i do appreciate and allow that the writings of Marx and those that influenced him (e.g., Hegel, Schiller) are instructive on the destructive nature of alienation, to which modern theories of motivation (e.g., Maslow; Alderfer) seek to explain processes that may overcome or prevent such. and i am not here to defend liberation theology (or it in its many forms, some of which have conceptual linkages to Marxist philosophy) or even to suggest it (and they) is (are) without problems (yeah even Cone admits a "provisionality" concerning his writings on black liberation theology), but i will assert that a theology having a focus on powers and principalities (e.g., Wink's multi-volume work) that oppress individuals is a theology that at a minimum shares a concern of Jesus, whom was concerned after the things of God, and as such, merits some degree of attention, regardless of whom is advocating such.

lastly, concerning verbosity: i have written extensive syllabi and suffered the criticism of length; shorter and the criticism of brevity; those in between and criticisms of length and brevity.

volfan007 said...

My Church does the Christmas Shoebox thing. Last year, we sent 402 shoeboxes out to the children of this world. This year, we have 344 so far...but looking to beat last years number. It's a good ministry to children and missions.

Bill,

BTW, Barack Hussein Obama.

Alan,

Barack Hussein Obama.

Mountain Man,

Barack Hussein Obama.

CB,

Barack Hussein Obama.


:)

David

Bill said...

David: It warms my heart to see that despite your advanced age you are still an 8 year old at heart. ;)