Sunday, February 21, 2010

Comfortable, but Not Very Helpful

Ancient is the temptation to attempt to make God in our own image, rather than to content ourselves with our being made in His. In light of that fact, Elton John's declaration that "Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man" is neither original nor surprising, heretical as it is (see here). It is the quintessence of self-worship and self-absorption to take sentences that one might well have written about oneself, swap out one's own name for the name of God, and feel very comfortable with all that we share in common with our favorite deity.

Of course, the real Jesus—the Jesus who actually lived in Judea 2,000 years ago and whose life is recorded in the gospels—must make Mr. John quite uncomfortable. He makes me uncomfortable. If He doesn't make you uncomfortable, then you're either not reading the New Testament or you're not reading it seriously.

And yet, no matter how much Mr. John may derive greater enjoyment from a Jesus of his own making, the remainder of Parade Magazine's interview with him shows clearly how much he needs an encounter with the real Jesus.

He needs the real Jesus because in spite of every conceivable advantage in his life, he's found nothing but heartache. His homosexual profligacy didn't satisfy him:

I'd always choose someone younger. I wanted to smother them with love. I'd take them around the world, try to educate them. One after another they got a Cartier watch, a Versace outfit, maybe a sports car. They didn't have jobs. They were reliant on me. I did this repeatedly. In six months they were bored and hated my guts because I'd taken their lives and self-worth away. I hadn't intended to.

Along with sexual perversion came chemical addictions, which also consumed his soul and left him with nothing:

Just about every relationship I ever had was involved with drugs. It never works. But I always had to be with someone, good or bad, otherwise I didn't feel fulfilled. I'd lost the plot.

. . . . . . . .

For some people a gram of cocaine can last a month. Not me. I have to do the lot, and then I want more. At the end of the day, all it led to was heartache

Underneath and around these perversions and addictions—leading to them and growing out of them—Elton John slumps under the burden of his own guilt. He has chosen the old path of seeing whether he can accrue enough good works to make his own atonement for his sins:

I set up my foundation because I wanted to make amends for the years I was a drug addict.

How much money will it take? How many good works? Who gets to read the scales?

I'm so thankful for Emir and Ergun Caner. We've seen two Muslims profess faith in Jesus Christ here at this little rural Texas church thanks to the witness and pastoral advice of Emir Caner. They are so right when they tell us about the brutality of the scales versus the beauty of God's grace in the gospel of Jesus Christ. But this message of grace is not a message for Muslims alone. The world is full of Elton Johns, toting around counterfeit Jesuses, all very comfortable to them, but no help at all. And all the while, "Jesus , the Mighty to Save" is not far away at all, and is their only hope.

40 comments:

Bob Cleveland said...

Amen, Bart. Just .. well .. Amen.

Tom Kelley said...

Which Jesus do you follow?
Which Jesus do you serve?
If Ephesians says to imitate Christ
Then why do you look so much like the world?

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the arrogant
So which one do you want to be?

Blessed are the poor in spirit
Or do we pray to be blessed with the wealth of this land
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness
Or do we ache for another taste of this world of shifting sand

Cause my Jesus bled and died for my sins
He spent His time with thieves and sluts and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the rich
So which one do you want to be?

Who is this that you follow
This picture of the American dream
If Jesus was here would you walk right by on the other side or fall down and worship at His holy feet

Pretty blue eyes and curly brown hair and a clear complexion
Is how you see Him as He dies for Your sins
But the Word says He was battered and scarred
Or did you miss that part
Sometimes I doubt we'd recognize Him

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and the least of these
He loved the poor and accosted the comfortable
So which one do you want to be?

Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet might stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despises the proud
I think He'd prefer Beale St. to the stained glass crowd
And I know that He can hear me if I cry out loud

I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!

Not a posterchild for American prosperity, but like my Jesus
You see I'm tired of living for success and popularity
I want to be like my Jesus but I'm not sure what that means to be like You Jesus
Cause You said to live like You, love like You but then You died for me
Can I be like You Jesus?
I want to be like you Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!

Joe Blackmon said...

I'm so thankful for Emir and Ergun Caner. We've seen two Muslims profess faith in Jesus Christ here at this little rural Texas church thanks to the witness and pastoral advice of Emir Caner.

I am so thankful for the witness of these men. I mean, I know I'm a Calvinist and that makes me worse than a terrorist (haa haa) but it is really stomach turning to see certain mainstream/moderate Christians just throw them under the bus because, well, just because.

Tim G said...

I will repeat what Bob said;

"AMEN!"

selahV said...

As we drove our granddaughters back home from a weekend visit tonight, Brooklyn (12 yrs.) who spent the weekend at Disciple Now, was sharing how much she wanted to know more about God. She shared an illustration the speaker had told about what it means to crave God's Word and to know Jesus. She was so excited about all she'd learned this weekend and wanted to know more. She said, "I wonder if I take my Bible to school if my teacher will let me read it during my free time. I've already read three books from the library this month. You'd think I could read what I want, wouldn't you, since it's my free time?" I told her I didn't see why she couldn't if it is her free time. (She's an A student). I am so grateful the Lord allowed me to have her this weekend so she could go to Disciple Now. I just pray she'll be able to read her Bible if she wants.

It's so sad that people don't know Jesus, and don't want to know Him. Tiger Woods made it plain who attones for his wrongs. He said he must. How very sad that he didn't take Britt Hume's words to heart. selahV

bapticus hereticus said...

John overcomes problems and uses his influence to alleviate suffering in the world. Criticized by Southern Baptist pastor and seminary trustee for being self-absorbed and not being Christian. -30-

WesInTex said...

Bart, just as a word of warning - you will want to delete the Chinese as quickly as possible.

Bart Barber said...

BH,

Elton John has yet to overcome the only problem that matters.

Bart Barber said...

Thanks, Wes.

volfan007 said...

BH,

This comment from you shows us your true colors like none other has.

Thanks for making it very, very clear that your post name, Bapticus Hereticus describes you very well. The only name that might be better is just plain ole Heretic.

David

John King said...

While I could not totally agree with Elton John's description of Jesus, Elton John does seem to have some understanding of the connection of love and forgiveness with God. I hope I never judge the heart of another and always only point to Jesus Christ. Over the centuries, there have been many understandings of Jesus. Even the early church had various portraits of Christ as evidenced by the four gospels and even the other gospels that did not make it into the canon. Maybe we should pray for Elton John.

bapticus hereticus said...

Bart: BH, Elton John has yet to overcome the only problem that matters.

bapticus hereticus: Really? Have you ever had an intimate conversation with Elton John concerning his relationship with God? Secondly, no words of praise for his accomplishments and the experience of others his work has improved? I won’t fault you for being critical, but I will for lack of balance and asserting a definitive conclusion that begs data.

bapticus hereticus said...

David: ... This comment ... shows ... your true colors ... Thanks for making it ... clear that your post name, Bapticus Hereticus ... might be better [as] ... Heretic.

bapticus hereticus: Jesus, an advocate of and for humility, was said to have a demon, too, by the religious conservatives of his day.

Joe Blackmon said...

If someone is an open, practicing homosexual, they are NOT a Christian. Period. Elton John does NOT have a real relationship with Jesus Christ. His actions and words prove that, BH. No one has to talk to him about it.

CB Scott said...

See Vol,

I have been telling you guys all along that my Beloved Heretic is in fact a Heretic.

Yet, the sad thing is, he is not a Christian who has become a heretic. he is a person who is lost and on his way to hell who has chosen to reject the biblical gospel of Christ and has embraced the way of a heretic.

He references the events recorded in Mark 3:22 and elsewhere in his defense against your rightly identifying him. What he neglects and to his own possible doom is the passage below beginning in Mark 3:23.

The Beloved Heretic is in danger of hell unless he repents and believes the biblical gospel.

Bart Barber said...

The effect of this seemingly charitable ambiguity toward Elton John and the remainder of the world is to delight in uncertainty as to whether people will spend eternity in Heaven or in Hell. To do so is to grant people no favor worth granting, especially when the Bible speaks so plainly on the matter.

bapticus hereticus said...

Joe: ... His actions and words prove that, BH. No one has to talk to him about it.

bapticus hereticus: yeah, why bother having a conversation before passing judgment. It simply isn't sufficiently efficient.

Bart Barber said...

Well, BH, you've made judgments about me without having spoken with me at all. Why? Because I made public statements, that's why. And the nature of my public statements was plain. The implications of them were clear.

The same is true with regard to Elton John.

bapticus hereticus said...

CB: He references ... Mark 3:22... What he neglects ... is the passage below beginning in Mark 3:23.

bapticus hereticus: Bart et al. pronounce judgment on one they, apparently, do not personally know. bapticus hereticus advocates for humility, especially in the absence of personal knowledge. Bart et al. praised. bapticus hereticus condemned for not being a Christian or at least failing to act like he is one.

bapticus hereticus said...

Bart: Well, BH, you've made judgments about me without having spoken with me at all. Why? Because I made public statements, that's why. And the nature of my public statements was plain. The implications of them were clear. The same is true with regard to Elton John.

bapticus hereticus: Have I ever stated that you were not a Christian, Bart, or did not have a relationship with God?

Bart Barber said...

No, BH, you didn't conclude that I was not a Christian. Rather, you concluded that I was being critical of Elton John for his being self-absorbed and not being a Christian.

You were correct in that judgment against me, even though you had not spoken with me at all about it, because I had made public statements to that effect. I had clearly stated that he was self-absorbed. I had not clearly stated that he was not a Christian, but such was the inescapable consequence of what I had clearly stated.

Now, because you are not a moron, you were plainly able to read my public statements, process their meanings and implications, and draw conclusions about what I had said without every having spoken a word with me.

My point is simply that I have done precisely the same thing with regard to Elton John. Your disagreement with me really has nothing to do with my not having interacted with him personally. If I had enjoyed a weekly lunch with him for a full decade in which he had repeatedly stated to me face-to-face the precise contents of the Parade article, and then if I had then written this precise post, would you then no longer have objected? I do not believe that you can honestly make that claim.

Our difference has nothing to do with whether public statements can be sufficient to indicate that a person is not a Christian. Rather, we differ over what it is that makes a person a Christian, as far as I can tell.

volfan007 said...

Methinks that CB is right about BH. BH does not understand grace at all, and he has no idea what salvation really is. Thus, BH, you are on your way to Hell, unless you repent and put your faith in Jesus as your LORD and Savior.

John King, do you believe that a practicing homosexual, who has not repented of his homosexuality, can be saved? Do you believe that nice people, who give money to charity are saved people? right with God? on their way to Heaven?

David

bapticus hereticus said...

Bart: No, BH, you didn't conclude that I was not a Christian. Rather, you concluded that I was being critical of Elton John for his being self-absorbed and not being a Christian.

You were correct in that judgment against me, even though you had not spoken with me at all about it, because I had made public statements to that effect. I had clearly stated that he was self-absorbed. I had not clearly stated that he was not a Christian, but such was the inescapable consequence of what I had clearly stated.

Now, because you are not a moron, you were plainly able to read my public statements, process their meanings and implications, and draw conclusions about what I had said without every having spoken a word with me.

My point is simply that I have done precisely the same thing with regard to Elton John. Your disagreement with me really has nothing to do with my not having interacted with him personally. If I had enjoyed a weekly lunch with him for a full decade in which he had repeatedly stated to me face-to-face the precise contents of the Parade article, and then if I had then written this precise post, would you then no longer have objected? I do not believe that you can honestly make that claim.

Our difference has nothing to do with whether public statements can be sufficient to indicate that a person is not a Christian. Rather, we differ over what it is that makes a person a Christian, as far as I can tell.


bapticus hereticus: What is the emphasis of my post, Bart? That you or I have no ability to discern a theoretical construct from manifest indicators? No, and I do not accept the straw-man argument about judging you, especially in light of how the construct judgment is used in this conversation. The point of my post is that asserting judgment of John’s relationship with God absent any personal relationship to John is questionable and lacks humility. Yes, that is judgment; not of your person, however, but of behavior manifested by your person. Your belief, while it may be true (for who can know the mind of God as God knows it; for it may be that neither of us is acceptable to God, even as both you and I perceive redemption to be the case), it is, nonetheless, certainty that is ill-founded, and as a doctoral-level historian I would surmise that you know such is the case. And it is unlikely that in any publication you would present for peer-review, such a conclusion based on the evidence available to you would be asserted. And lastly, even if you wish to assert the ‘thats’ which are necessary to make one Christian, on what basis will you assert that “I am positive beyond all doubt that such is lacking in John’s life,” especially given no relationship with the man? You have a controversy with John. You have admitted it. John would likely have a controversy with you, too. Where you are faulted is over-playing your hand and being unbalanced in your appropriation of him. If John were to respond to you in the tone you wrote of him, I would be disappointed in him, too.

bapticus hereticus said...

David: Methinks that CB is right about BH. BH does not understand grace at all, and he has no idea what salvation really is. Thus, BH, you are on your way to Hell, unless you repent and put your faith in Jesus as your LORD and Savior.

bapticus hereticus: Would that be the same LORD and Savior that inspires you to be so gracious to me?

volfan007 said...

I'm being very gracious to you, BH. I'm telling you the truth. If I've got cancer, then I'd want a Dr. that would tell me that I had cancer. I sure wouldnt want a Dr. that would tell me to take some tylenol and not worry about it; it's just a headache.

CB and I are telling you the truth. We're telling you what you need to hear...for the good of your soul and eternity. Heed the warning. Listen to the truth. Repent of your heretical, unBiblical thoughts; and turn to the Lord Jesus...putting all of your faith in Him to save your soul. Turn to Jesus with all of your heart, and place your faith in His finished work on the cross for your sins. Believe that He rose from the dead. And, surrender to Him as your Lord. Do it today...while you have opportunity...while you have time. Dont delay. Dont put it off. Turn to Jesus in surrending faith this very moment, and be saved...gloriously saved forever.

Will you?

David

bapticus hereticus said...

David: I'm being very gracious to you, BH. I'm telling you the truth. If I've got cancer, then I'd want a Dr. that would tell me that I had cancer. I sure wouldnt want a Dr. that would tell me to take some tylenol and not worry about it; it's just a headache.

Doctor: “You have cancer. And you don’t know anything about cancer or cancer treatments; in fact, you don’t know anything about medicine at all. Actually, everything you know is wrong and wrongheaded, and if you continue to delude yourself of your silliness about knowing anything, it, too, oozing with self-importance, you will die even sooner. For your own good, leave your judgment with me. I know. You don’t.”

After leaving the room the physician says, “Nurse, see if the cancer guy in room 10 has any questions.”

Nurse replies: “Doctor, sorry, but the ‘cancer guy’ in room 10 is not the cancer guy. The guy in room 10 is the chaplain that is here for the 10:00 AM job interview.”

Doctor: “Good. Let her tell the cancer guy, wherever he is, that he’s gonna die.”

Grosey's Messages said...

BH.. what?

bapticus hereticus said...

Steve: BH.. what?

bapticus hereticus: Steve, would you prefer a physician with such a bedside manner and attitude toward people?

Joe Blackmon said...

BH

Sorry but not everybody is a Wade Burleson who is going to tell you that you can believe whatever you want and if you're sincere God HAS to accept you because "faith trumps belief". Not everybody is a Rick Warren who is going to tell you "It's not about you" and spend an entire 300+ pages telling you about YOUR purpose. Not everyone is a Joel Osteen who is going to smile at you and tell you how to be a champion and live Your Best Life Now but fail to call you to repent of your sin.

The fact is the "bedside manner" you suggest be adopted will lead people to hell. Period.

Now, you don't like it when CB and David tell you that you're going to hell without repenting of your sins and trust Christ alone for your salvation then that is a YOU problem not a ME problem.

bapticus hereticus said...

Joe: ... Now, you don't like it when CB and David tell you that you're going to hell without repenting of your sins and trust Christ alone for your salvation then that is a YOU problem not a ME problem.

Actually, Joe, what you, David, CB, and Bart think of my relationship to God has no bearing on it, and given my previous profession of ‘Jesus as Lord’ on this blog has been ignored by all or some of said group, reveals not a problem with me, but with those that wish to tear at the fabric of Christian brotherhood. We are not going to agree on some things, but it does behoove us to be fair concerning how we characterize others. It saddens me that it is not uncommon that disagreements end up with a conservative (e.g., you) stating the liberal (e.g., me) is without Christ. It is silly; it is immature. It is not that I dislike it for what it does to me directly; I dislike it for the harm it does to those that look to us as people professing a better way. It has been said before, but it bears repeating again: even if some find the message of the gospel to be offensive, must the people that bring the gospel be offensive, too? If one wishes a hearing and to be taken seriously, might one first be respectful of the being to which the other possesses? If we speak of God and people’s need for God’s love, it behooves us to be loving toward said people, otherwise why would they listen? NO, it is not loving to tell one that he or she is going to hell and do so in a manner that does not respect the being of said person (e.g., the snarkiness of comments directed at me in this thread as one who knows nothing spiritual and is without any obvious foundation in such; surely that makes me eager to give one a serious listening). What is communicated is that one is not loved or respected, whether that is the intended message or not. Yes, bedside manner is important. Some call it being pastoral.

Different people will respond to different approaches, and it is not the fault of the 'target' if you fail to appreciate this insight. Communication is not the responsibility of the receiver; it is the responsbility of the sender. You might consider diversifying your approach in sharing the gospel, assuming a positive response from the other is valued.

Joe Blackmon said...

If you can claim "Jesus is Lord" but also claim that being an open, practicing homosexual does not prove that a person is NOT saved then your profession is just words--it is not connected to real, saving faith because you do not understand the gospel.

If you're looking for a kinder, gentler response you might try not telling people that they are just narrow minded and unloving when they're simply telling the truth. Again, the bedside manner you're looking for is one that says "Now, this is what I believe and all, but if you disagree well, that's ok." Sorry, but not everybody is going to just going to tell you what you want to hear the way you want to hear it.

Anonymous said...

Bart,
I am so impressed with you! Your research and analysis is great. I will be a regular reader. I will also pray that God will continue to use you for his glory.

Dan Wooldridge
Georgetown, Texas

CB Scott said...

Beloved Heretic,

You are right in saying, "Actually, Joe, what you, David, CB, and Bart think of my relationship to God has no bearing on it...."

What we think is really not important.

What is important is the fact that you do not have a valid, soul saving relationship with Christ. The consequences of this great gulf between you and Christ is everlasting lostness.

David, cb and Bart will ultimately pass from this life into the next and our thoughts on this matter will cease to exist and really not matter.

But, my Beloved Heretic, when you pass from this life into the next, the absence of a valid, soul saving relationship with Christ will be the only thing that does matter to you for everlasting-to-everlasting.

The gulf between you and God can be bridged in this life by the atoning death of Christ on the cross if you repent of sin and believe the biblical gospel. But if you die lost, the offer of the cross will stand no more and your lostness will be forevermore.

bapticus hereticus said...

Joe: If you can claim "Jesus is Lord" but also claim that being an open, practicing homosexual does not prove that a person is NOT saved then your profession is just words--it is not connected to real, saving faith because you do not understand the gospel.

bapticus hereticus: To you, given your reading of scripture, homosexuality is a sin, and I assume other things, too. Do you practice/engage in, notwithstanding regularity, any of the other things? Do you have a thorn or thorns in your flesh that is or are unchecked once in a while? Are you without sin, Joe? If you cannot say no to any of the above, by your own standard your profession is not real.

Joe: If you're looking for a kinder, gentler response you might try not telling people that they are just narrow minded and unloving when they're simply telling the truth ....

bapticus hereticus: What I said, Joe, was that Bart’s post concerning John was unbalanced and lacking in humility. I spoke to his behaviors; I did not speak to his person or its worth as a child of God (which I affirm and celebrate). To the latter, you, David, and CB have been quite active in your comments toward me. Second, I have no issue with you or anyone else telling the truth as you or they perceive it, but I think statements about such need to be measured and delivered in a civil, respecting manner. If one has something to share with someone in which he or she desires a particular response, it behooves said person to speak to where the other is (and I am NOT speaking about ‘that’ person being lost and speeding to hell) and in the other’s categories, not demand the other to be where he or she is and accept his or her categories, unless it is one’s desire to demonstrate no regard for the other as a person, which seems strange for a religion that places the importance on each being (e.g., what is man that God is mindful?).

I have stated it before but apparently it needs to be stated again. Concerning the literature on facilitating change in an attitude/value of another:

1) The other must believe in the sincerity/credibility/etc. of the person making the proposal,

2) The proposal must be perceived as credible,

3) The proposal if appropriated by the ‘target’ must be seen has having efficacy for the self.

Concerning 1: I have conversed with you, David, CB, and Bart, and when it comes to each of you concerning my eternal/spiritual state, I do not believe the sincerity of any of you. I cannot get beyond the snarkiness. You will give the benefit of the doubt to another conservative, but a liberal, by definition and essence, deserves not the same or any magnanimity.

Concerning 2. I have professed Christ on this blog to assuage your concerns. It has been repeatedly rejected. Whereas I have seldom agreed with many of you on most issues, I have not once thought you were not Christian. I do not desire to strike at the foundation of the house. Your proposal is not sincere as I perceive it nor is your message credible as to my spiritual state as I know it. And it is just silly of any of you to suggest you know it better than myself, doctrinal leanings notwithstanding.

Concerning 3: I believe in the efficacy of the gospel and its power to transform; I do not, however, believe as you and others that such a process has not begun in my experience. None of you may claim any influence on my decision for Christ, for such was enacted and influenced by, yes, fundamentalists, many decades ago. If you desire to continue tearing at my being in Christ, because of doctrinal and other differences, that is your choice and immaturity on display.

SBCers do not state that these ill-informed and abrupt “I must tell you that you are going to hell because and I say this because I love you” behaviors are working. The SBC numbers are not growing and where there is church growth, it is mostly due to membership transfer. If you think that I speak not the truth, then listen to your own people. Many of your leaders will tell you the same thing.

bapticus hereticus said...

CB: Beloved Heretic,

bapticus hereticus: CB, yet again, apparently wishing to demonstrate he is loving and caring toward me, and yet, again, he cannot find it within himself to refer to myself in the manner that I prefer (i.e., bapticus hereticus), the manner to which I requested from him on numerous occasions. See post to Joe for items 1), 2), and 3).

CB: What is important is the fact that you do not have a valid, soul saving relationship with Christ ....

bapticus hereticus: God bless your soul, CB.

Joe Blackmon said...

Concerning 1: You will give the benefit of the doubt to another conservative, but a liberal, by definition and essence, deserves not the same or any magnanimity.

Right. So what's your point? What part of "...rebuke them sharply" (Titus 1:13) do you not get?

Concerning 2. I have professed Christ on this blog to assuage your concerns. It has been repeatedly rejected.

Well, yeah. When you make claims that are contrary to the clear teachings of scripture you prove that you don't have the first clue as to what the gospel is. No one is saved apart from the gospel. You don't have to have a doctorate in theology, or even an M-Div, but you do have to know who Jesus is, why He died, you do have to repent and trust Christ alone for salvation. Sorry I can't sugar it up like they do in Enid.

Concerning 3: I believe in the efficacy of the gospel and its power to transform; I do not, however, believe as you and others that such a process has not begun in my experience. None of you may claim any influence on my decision for Christ, for such was enacted and influenced by, yes, fundamentalists, many decades ago. If you desire to continue tearing at my being in Christ, because of doctrinal and other differences, that is your choice and immaturity on display.

Ok, I seriously fell asleep reading that. At the risk of falling asleep again, let me just say that simply claiming you are a Christian doesn't make you a Christian any more than claiming I'm a CPA would make me a CPA.

bapticus hereticus said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bapticus hereticus said...

bapticus hereticus: … a liberal, by definition and essence, deserves not the same or any magnanimity.

Joe: Right.


bapticus hereticus: See item 1) above on sincerity and regard.

bapticus hereticus: I have professed Christ on this blog to assuage your concerns. It has been repeatedly rejected.

Joe: … you make claims that are contrary to … scripture … you do have to know who Jesus is, why He died, you do have to repent and trust Christ alone for salvation.


bapticus hereticus: And you know that I: a) do not know Jesus, b) do not know why he died, and c) have not repented and trust(ed) Christ alone for salvation, or d) know that scripture must only be interpreted with a particular hermeneutic? Joe, you make the same mistake as Bart did toward John.

bapticus hereticus: I believe in the efficacy of the gospel and its power to transform; I do not, however, believe as you and others that such a process has not begun in my experience. None of you may claim any influence on my decision for Christ, for such was enacted and influenced by, yes, fundamentalists, many decades ago. If you desire to continue tearing at my being in Christ, because of doctrinal and other differences, that is your choice and immaturity on display.

Joe: Ok, I seriously fell asleep reading that. At the risk of falling asleep again, let me just say that simply claiming you are a Christian doesn't make you a Christian any more than claiming I'm a CPA would make me a CPA.


bapticus hereticus: [1] I tell you that good fundamentalist Christians, whom I loved then and now, introduced me to Jesus and you “seriously fell asleep reading that”? Is this your way of convincing me that you give half a hoot about me? [2] Concerning my claim to being a follower of Christ: have you not on occasions done the same, Joe? In this forum are you met with scorn for doing such, even among those that have never met you?

I am really surprised, that even among a sea of conservative Christians that often find themselves disagreeing with me, that you, David, and CB can continue treating a brother in Christ, yeah, a liberal brother, nonetheless, in Christ, in such a cavalier manner, and that none of these Christians protest said behavior. The conservatives, yeah, even the fundamentalist Christians that I personally know and love would not hold this type of behavior as normative of their theological orientation. But, given my own inconsistencies, and by the grace which forgives such, I wish for none of you ill-will, only God’s blessings.

Joe Blackmon said...

Joe, you make the same mistake as Bart did toward John.


I consider any comparison to Bart to be a compliment of the highest order. Especially since he was dead on in his analysis of Elton John.

you, David, and CB can continue treating a brother in Christ,

Kind of hard to be a brother in Christ when you don't believe the gospel

bapticus hereticus said...

bapticus hereticus: [...] you, David, and CB can continue treating a brother in Christ [....]

Joe: Kind of hard to be a brother in Christ when you don't believe the gospel[.]


bapticus hereticus: God's blessings to you, Joe.